Name: WEB ONLY: Death penalty lawyers dedicate lives to saving those of others
Uploaded: 2022-05-05T10:21:00-0400
Duration: 1380674
Description: A pair of lawyers who focus on death penalty cases discusses the challenge with WRAL's David Crabtree.

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A pair of lawyers who focus on death penalty cases discusses the challenge with WRAL's David Crabtree.

<p>collectively how many years are represented here of doing death penalty work 60 41 for me 60 nearly nearly 6069 6 decades right here of doing this work. Yes sir you could have done all sorts of legal work. Why this in particular? So I just fell into this work because a professor at boston University law School where I went to school recommended that the the place that would fit me the most and and my interest was Criminal Law but it was also representing indigent persons in the south because I'm from New Orleans. The place that would fit me the most was a place called Team Defense Project. And the the idea behind Team Defense Project in Atlanta was that they would represent persons on death row or persons accused in capital cases in the same way that big corporate law firms would represent coca cola or other big corporations. In other words they would take very seriously the obligation of seamlessly representing poor people who otherwise were despised and had no adequate representation. So that that's how I started. And I never looked back. You fell into it but you never fell out of it. I never fell out. That's right. How about you Elizabeth? It's really the same. The same story except well I I got it in my head that that's what I wanted to do. My first summer of law school was work here in this office. I went to U. N. C. I grew up in Raleigh and I missed my interview because I was young and disorganized and I didn't make it to the interview and I was very disappointed that I had, I lost my chance to work in this office, but then they called me in any way and I came in and they hired me amazingly and ken was the director at that point and I guess I had a great summer. Um I think I really, I was shocked that anyone would let me go in and talk with people on death row. I think at the time it seemed exciting to me. But then very quickly under started to realize that it was a very weighty task and the and the first summer um I was assigned to a case of a man who was supposed to be executed at the end of the summer and my job was to go in and talk to him. Um I guess keep his spirits up and thank God he was not executed at the end of that summer. He was executed later several years later. Um But I, I I think I started to understand that these were people um that they were not caricatures like you hear about. Um you know in fiction or in movies or or the way that the media was portraying crime at that time and still does um that they were people who, you know, had had flaws and also had a lot of a lot to give and were interesting to talk to and needed help. Um and yeah, I wanted to keep doing that, ken, and I talked about this briefly on the phone last week, but what do you think it is? And this question for both of you, what do you think it is in society in this country that has allowed us to think the willful taking of a life as punishment is proper. I think that um, in most societies that if you, yes people in most countries, if you ask people, um, what should be the punishment for a horrendous murder? Horrendous crime? That it's not just in this country, but in most countries, people respond, um, well if they killed someone and they did it intentionally and it was a terrible crime then they should be executed. I think what has change that in people's minds both abroad and here is the fact that human beings are administering that, that, um, system of justice and because human beings are administering that innocent people are caught up in it. Uh, there are terrible mistakes that go along with the trials and prosecutions of persons for the death penalty. Race is a major factor And uh, people who are, who are sense of death often are the most vulnerable people with intellectual disabilities, people with serious mental illness, young people, mostly young people and certainly poor people. And I think when, when the public considers those factors in addition to the, the crime and also, you know, that we know that the person might not have done the crime, then that begins to change people's minds. And so we are, we are vengeful, um, society, But when we have all the information, um, and when we recognize the floss, I think we begin to change that viewpoint. This is something that happens in the abstract for most people. I mean, we view it from a distance. It's real sanitized for the rest of society, isn't it? So does that enable do you think the psyche to say this is okay? Absolutely. I mean, it's intentionally sanitized. In the last several years, I've been, uh, belatedly learning a lot more about the history of the death penalty, particularly in north Carolina and, and how, uh, the history of the death penalty is a history of attempting to make it look more humane or, or more fair. Um, and, and all, but all of that really just happens on the surface level. I mean, since I work in it and I can see that there's really these incredibly deep flaws in it, that you can't, you can't correct because as Kenneth saying it's a system administered by human beings, it's, it's never going to be perfect. But we try to put this sheen on it. So, so we, uh, you know, after after reconstruction, uh, there's a lot of lynchings in north Carolina, right? And the purpose of those lynchings, most of the victims are black. And the purpose of, of them is to resurrect white supremacy after the civil War and after Reconstruction. Um, those lynchings start to look embarrassing and you can see newspaper articles and you know, opinions at the time saying these lynchings are embarrassing to our, to our reputation as a state. We need to use the death penalty more too to make it look better. And so the death penalty sort of served the same purpose, but, but looked a little bit better than lynching. It gave a veneer of fairness and justice to really what was the same, the same process to a large extent. And then you can see, you know, moving from public hangings, uh, you can see moving the executions inside to central prison, um, centralizing it. So the counties aren't, aren't doing it anymore. It's uh, it's behind prison walls, there's not a crowd, um, that makes it look more humane. Um, and also just sort of hides it from view. Right? So people don't see it. They attempt to move to lethal gas, which is supposedly more humane than hanging. I'm not sure that obviously that is not true that lethal gasses humane. And so they very quickly after lethal gas turns into some spectacle of just horrific spectacle of watching people die in torture. Uh, then they shift to lethal injection. Um, and also of course there was the electric chair in there as well where people were burned. Um, so there's always this attempt to try to make it more humane to make it look better. Um, and now what we have is, um, is this lethal injection, which of course we know now is actually not humane, you paralyze someone, but that doesn't mean that they're not feeling anything. Um, it's sort of the ultimate in, um, and as you're saying, sanitization has changes in sentencing laws, particularly now that north Carolina has life without the possibility of parole. Has that changed? Is that why we're seeing fewer cases being tried as capital cases with a death penalty sought by prosecutors? I think that's a very small piece of it. Um, and the reason I say that is because there's been so many other changes that I think have had a more profound effect than life without possibility of parole. For example, District Attorney's before in 2001 did not have the choice of trying a first degree murder case. Um, non capitally if there was any evidence of a single aggravating circumstance. Um, so Before 2001 and North Carolina was unique in that sense. We were the only state that took away powers of the district attorney not to seek the death penalty under those circumstances. And what happened is, we were the second highest per capita Stayed in the country in terms of death sensing during the 1990s, at one point, we had 35 persons since the death in a single year in north Carolina and that means we had many more people per capita since to death in texas and florida, California. Um, and we had some good trial attorneys and we had some bad trial attorneys, but we did not have the numbers of trial attorneys. We needed not the numbers of good ones to try all these cases. So a lot of the people were getting sentenced with representation. That was not good. And um, the other change in 2000 and one that has made a difference is the creation of indigent defense services in north Carolina which centralized the appointment of, of capital attorneys, the appointment of experts and um, that that also and and set standards for attorneys and for the attorneys that were really not very good. They were not allowed to represent people on death row. Um, but we still have too many trials. And this year there are 15 trials scheduled um, for that could potentially end in the death penalty and we do not still have representation. That that is excellent in all those cases. A couple of things. Any time that I put together any story on the death penalty over the years, 28 years in Capitol Broadcasting the question about victim's families comes up. Well, what about the victim's family? Um, does this give them a chance at closure? Now In all fairness, I think closure is a very overused word that to me any loss, closure takes years, maybe you can begin the process of it. But closures are really, how do you get over the death of someone. So the question becomes when you are faced with a conversation with the victim's family member, while you are working to not necessarily exonerate the person, but to keep them off of death row, how do you address that? Well, hopefully with a great deal of sensitivity and recognizing of course, that the harm, I mean, some, some, some people who are on death row or who are charged with murder are innocent of course, but, um, but let's assume that a lot of them did do something that caused immense harm, right? Um, and, and I hope that we who represent folks who are on the road or who are facing murder charges, never lose sight of the fact that, that the harm that is caused by murder is enormous. Uh, I haven't seen anything yet. That makes me think that the death penalty addresses that harm. And of course logically, I don't really know how it could, how harming another person actually could alleviate harm that has been caused. Um, but the victims families all feel differently across the spectrum. I think it's really unfair. I certainly met plenty of people whose, who have lost loved ones to murder, who do not feel that the death penalty is would be anything that would do anything to alleviate their harm. In fact, there are many who want to reach out, um, and connect with people that maybe the actual individual who, who killed their loved one or maybe, um, uh, you know, someone who's in a similar situation to, to sort of bridge that and, and, and for many people, it feels better and healing to recognize the humanity of a person who has caused that kind of harm. Uh, there's a connection there sort of that, that you that is created by a crime like that. Um, and sometimes embracing that connection actually is what is what is needed for healing. Um, right now our system because it's adversarial, um, and because of policies that the prison implements really keeps people apart. Um, the people who have been harmed by murder and, and people who have caused murder are not allowed to um, to interact. Um, people, you know, our clients are not really in a lot of ways allowed in a genuine sense to uh, to apologize to have any kind of um, well, I think, um, I'm not exactly sure. I mean, I hope that the, that the policy for instance, like right now, North Carolina has no, um, no official prison policy on victim offender dialogue, which is something that a lot of states have that gives victims an opportunity if for those who want it and many do To interact and hear from and have questions answered and hear an apology from the person who killed their loved one. North Carolina has no policy on that. And in fact, there have been victims in this state who have asked for that and been denied the opportunity for a victim offender dialogue, which I, which to me says a lot about the idea that this system is the rhetoric that we often hear, which is that this system is necessary for the protection of victims when in fact um victims who want something that is not what they think victims should want, which is vengeance, victims who want something different are actually not given what they need. Um my understanding is that maybe that policy is being reconsidered and I certainly hope that there will be uh, Opportunities because my experience from the other side of um, you know, interacting with people who have, who have committed murder uh, is that like all of us, there's just huge capacity for change and growth. Um, I know people who you know have been on death row for 20 years and or longer and uh and have changed enormously in that time and want nothing more than to have an opportunity to uh to do something to make some sort of repair or offer some sort of amends or acknowledgment of the harm that they have caused. And and right now they are, they're told not only can they not do that. Um, but they are told that their life has no value that they're stuck frozen at that moment when they did the worst thing that they ever did and that there's no that we will never, we as a society will never recognize after they've done something like that, their capacity for change and growth and humanity. The last, when I checked the website On Friday, the census I saw was 134 on death row. We have not had an execution in the state since 2006, 16 years ago. is it likely any of those 134 people will be executed? Well, I don't think so, I and I certainly hope not, I there are there are just so many obstacles in this state to restart in executions but the part of it is the attitude of the public because attitudes are changing and um I represented Henry McCollum and Leon Brown in 2014 and um they were held up as examples, Henry was as an example of the worst of the worst and the person who everyone should be scared of and everyone should want to execute. In fact Supreme Court justice Scalia, health, Henry McCullum up as an example of someone who should be um his crime as an example of why we could never get rid of the death penalty. But what we found out in Henry's case is that he did not commit the crime and its revelations like that, That jar us into realizing that that even even defense attorneys, I represented Henry for 20 years jar us into understanding that we don't know, we do not know that what happened in many of these cases and we think we do, we have the certainty, but we don't know. And so Henry not only was exonerated, he was given a pardon of innocence by the governor And then he um, just last year, um, he and his brother got a judgment of over $75 million North Carolina. Um, so it's those revelations that force us to pause and say, is it worth it, is it worth the risk of executing innocent people to continue this? This very draconian punishment. And I think the answer many people draws no. Um, and then in addition, we have found through the litigation of the racial justice act that there is racial discrimination in almost every case in the state through a study by michigan state University College of Law professors. And it's discrimination is keeping african american citizens from serving on juries and death penalty cases. Um, through a comprehensive study, we know that in almost every case in the state african american um, citizens were excluded from service by prosecutors, use of strikes and the question for all of us is is that a price we're willing to pay for this punishment is are we willing to say we will tolerate discrimination against our fellow citizens and uh, and I hope the answer to that is now, do you think there will be those who are alive today on death row will be executed anytime in the near future? If I had to guess, I would say no, but it doesn't seem to me that there is for all the reasons that ken has just said and lots more I think that the political will for it is waning. I think that what scares me is um is that I think if if it does happen it will be because ah the folks on death row are are easy targets for uh huh. Crime crime has always you know for a long time been used as a political uh and rhetorical tool to uh I think really to distract people from other issues that are more important, but it is very convenient um you know people are scared of crime um it's easy to put people in boxes um and to believe that if someone has done something really horrible that that they that they need to bear that label for the rest of their life and um I do worry a lot that that the men and women on death row will once again become sort of a political political pawns for um distracting the you know the public by um by thinking this is the solution to our problems, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on in the world right now. That's scary um and and it might be that that some politicians want to make it seem like it but that taking care of these people is what will make us safer, what will make us whole or um what will, you know, solve, solve everything. Um And but yeah, I certainly worry that fear is a powerful weapon, isn't it? Absolutely ken Elizabeth, thank you.</p>

David Crabtree

Keith Baker

WEB ONLY: Death penalty lawyers dedicate lives to saving those of others

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I'm meteorologist, Kat Campbell in the wr a severe weather center. No more thirties in the forecast and we don't have a frost threat tonight so you can leave your plants be, temperatures are falling into the upper forties to lower fifties overnight. We've got a different wind direction and some more clouds that will fill in by daybreak tomorrow at the bus stop, it'll be in the low to mid fifties for most of the kids out there. So a mild start, but you may want to send your kids to school with an umbrella because by the time they head home, some of us are going to be dealing with a chance for rain during the afternoon. It's all due to this cold front. Approaching from the northwest. There's not a lot of moisture for the front to work with, but just enough and enough lift to squeeze out some rain. I think that rain chances would start in our northwestern counties around 11 a.m. through lunchtime. And then that chance is really closer to, to three o'clock here in the triangle. But that might be when the kids are heading home as we get toward 456. It would be south and east of the triangle with the best chance for rain. Rocky Mount, Southern Pines. I'm thinking you'll be in that 3 to 5 p.m. time frame for rain. It's not going to be a very heavy rain. There is a small chance of a thunderstorm embedded, but most of us will just see some pretty light rain. In fact, models are showing less than 5/100 of an inch of rain. So very tiny rainfall amounts from this event. We do have the Durham Bulls in town this week. And luckily the forecast looks good for all of their home games. First pitch is at 6:35 p.m. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. We've just got wonderful baseball weather. Temperatures will be near 70 for the first pitches and the rain should be over in Durham, the triangle by the time we get to dinner time for tomorrow evening, which means it's likely to be a dry game for us. Your seven day forecast show, some big changes are on the way though. We've got 74 for the high Wednesday with chance for rain Thursday just 72. So a small dip in our high temperatures more noticeable at night though we fall into the upper forties Thursday night to Friday morning, we're going with 47 as the low Friday morning around the triangle. And then once we get to the weekend temperatures begin to rebound. However, that will come with an increasing cloud cover mostly cloudy Saturday and Sunday. But back in the eighties by Sunday and even warmer next week, highs could climb near 90 a week from today.

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Good evening. I'm Tis the cash with tonight's lottery drawings for Tuesday, April 23rd, 2024. Good luck at the Carolina pick 38 is our first winning number tonight, followed by six, third pick 35 and the pick three. Fireball number is eight. Joining me for tonight's drawing is our auditor from mcconnell and Jones L LP. Now it's time for the Carolina pick for checking tickets. Good luck. Six is first winning number tonight followed by zero, third pick 4, 1/4 winning number another zero. And our pick for fireball number is three. Let's turn now to the Carolina cash five. If no one matches all five numbers to win the jackpot tonight, tomorrow's top prize is an estimated $528,000. Good luck first winning cash five number 28 cash 5, 33. 3rd winning number 13. Our fourth cash five tonight, 25 and good luck. Our final winning number is 30. The North Carolina Education lottery has contributed over $10 billion to education. Thanks for your support and get the winning numbers every night right here on your exclusive station for the North Carolina Education lottery. Thanks for playing.

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>> ACROSS AMERICA WITH MEGA JACKPOTS, IT'S MEGA MILLIONS HALEM ERIC, I'M JOHN CROW TO SEIZE APRIL 23RD AND TONIGHT'S MEGA MILLIONS JACKPOT IS AN ESTIMATED ANNUITIZED 202 MILLION DOLLARS. >> TO WIN THAT JACKPOT, YOU MUST MATCH THESE 5 WHITE. PLUS THAT GOLD MEGA BALL. NOW AS YOU MAKE IT MAKE YOU A MILLIONAIRE TONIGHT. FIRST WINNING NUMBER TONIGHT IS A 43 FOLLOWED. MY 39. UP NEXT, WE HAVE 11 IN X NUMBER IS 17 IN YOUR FINAL WHITE BALL NUMBER FOR THIS TUESDAY EVENING IS 33 NOW FOR THE MEGA BALL NUMBER. THAT IS 14 AGAIN. TONIGHT'S WINNING NUMBERS ARE 43. 39, 11,

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Good afternoon. I'm Grace Hall and welcome to this afternoon's drawings for Tuesday, April 23rd, 2024. Let's get started with the Carolina pick three. The first pick three number is the first number is one followed by 30 and then your fire ball is four. Joining me for this afternoon's drawing is our auditor from mcconnell and Jones L LP. Now let's move on to the Carolina pick for the first pick four. Number is still waiting for those numbers to draw. As I said this afternoon's drawing, our auditor is mcconnell Jones L LP. Now we've got your first number is eight then zero, then nine followed by eight and your fireball is four. Thank you for watching.

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WEB ONLY: Death penalty lawyers dedicate lives to saving those of others

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