NC Gov. Josh Stein supports legalizing THC-intoxicating products for adults

Governor Stein thank you so much for inviting us here

today

Uh so grateful to be here

Uh let's begin with what it is exactly that you're

announcing and I think we have to start with the

central question that would probably be on the minds of

most people which is do you support the legalization of

recreational marijuana use for adults The reason first of all

what I'm announcing is an advisory council on cannabis policy

And I'm using the word cannabis very intentionally and not

marijuana because the traditional terms of marijuana and hemp have

really lost their meaning and in North Carolina everywhere if

you go to a vape shop on Hillsborough Street on

Peace Street you know 3 doors down from Broughton High

School you can get a hemp product a cannabis product

with intoxicating THC

There is no age restriction on who can buy those

products

What I wanna do is make sure that we have

a smart sound policy response to what's going on in

the real world

We've got kids able to buy intoxicating cannabis THC

We've got adults buying it with having

No idea what's in that product

There are no labeling requirements

We have no idea what the concentration of THC is

So to answer your question fundamentally is I believe adults

should be able to choose what they want to do

but they need to have information

They need to be protected and the public needs to

be protected

The public gets protected in a number of ways starts

with keeping kids

Kids need to be out of these shops

If you are not 21 years old you should not

be buying intoxicating THC

That is my firm belief and that is not the

law today in North Carolina um but we also have

to make sure that the public is protected that if

people are out there driving and they're high

Law enforcement needs to have the test to know whether

this person has committed a crime right now with alcohol

it's pretty easy to determine if somebody has alcohol in

their system when they're driving badly with marijuana it's very

difficult so we need to invest in the equipment for

law enforcement to be able to ensure that the public

is safe because today they're out there high

With products that they bought lawfully at a store and

we have no way of enforcing the law against them

OK so I want that's what you said a whole

lot there

I wanna make sure that I'm splitting this up in

parts because it's really important you talk about uh you

know you called it the wild wild west so many

other people also think that right now it's so unregulated

it's a chaotic market but I wanna take it piece

by piece so

Do you support again the legalizing recreational marijuana use for

adults and is there a certain age where you think

that that should happen Yeah so I I'm just gonna

set marijuana aside and I'm not trying to be oppositional

because marijuana and hemp have no meaning in today's world

It's all cannabis cannabis is the plant that has both

of these traditional products

I believe that adults should be able to use cannabis

with intoxicating THC if they want so yes I do

support that but what I really support is making sure

that kids cannot buy it

And by law today in North Carolina they can that

is absolutely unacceptable to me we have to do a

better job protecting our kids but we also have to

do a job protecting adults who are purchasing this because

we have no idea there's no independent lab requirement there's

no labeling requirement there's no requirement that they say what

concentration of THC there is that's the critical amount how

much THC is in these products No

One knows

Explain the landscape now

I think a lot of people just don't even understand

the difference between cannabis you have hemp derived THC

You have obviously THC that's in marijuana which is illegal

in North Carolina

So what's your understanding of how the system is working

right now and what's legal for both children because anyone

can get hemp derived THC products and adults

Yeah so historically

You have cannabis and the difference between hemp and marijuana

was what was the concentration of THC in the plant

If it was above 0.3% it could get you high

That was marijuana that's illegal

If it was less than that and I think it

was 2018 US Congress said hemp is legal as long

as it's in a lower concentration

But what the industry did is they took that 0.3%

concentration and took it out of the plant and put

it in the product so now you have a product

with a whole bunch of other stuff in it that

adds the weight and if you have 30 of that

the amount of THC in the product will get you

high

And that's what's for sale on street corners all across

North Carolina so it's no longer relevant do you call

this marijuana Do you call it hemp is will it

get you high Is it an intoxicating amount of THC

And what I want to do is bring order to

this market because like you said it is the wild

west out there

The idea that we have a system where this product

which is a drug that can get you high is

for sale out there without any restrictions on how it's

sold to me is insane

With alcohol I believe adults should be able to drink

alcohol if they choose but we have a system that

ensures that we're protecting kids

You cannot be under 21

You have to be 21 or older to buy alcohol

You have to go to a special store

You have exactly knowledge about how much proof what is

the alcohol proof of this product Is there any other

ingredient in this product All of this is known

We need to have something similar that protects the public

when it comes to THC

Uh and that's what I want to bring order to

the wild west that is North Carolina

I mean it's really ironic that in some ways

The most liberal pro marijuana adult use state in the

country is North Carolina

It's not Colorado

It's not Massachusetts it's not the states that legalized it

and then created a regulatory structure to sell it

It's North Carolina where we have no rules whatsoever

That is unacceptable

Isn't the legislatures supposed to be the body that creates

these rules around this Yeah and they've been wrestling with

it for a couple of years

You've had the house that's been trying to wrestle with

the vape shops

You have the Senate that's been looking at the issue

of medical marijuana and they've been in conflict and so

part of what I want this advisory council to do

is to get all of the stakeholders around the table

together Republican and Democratic legislators on the House side Republican

and Democratic legislators on the Senate side public health folks

public safety folks um we want everybody to come together

to say what should it look like in North Carolina

I think that anybody who looks at what's happening in

North Carolina who really understands it and a lot of

people to your point earlier they have no idea just

go into a vape shop ask the clerk what product

will get me the most high and they will give

you something and it would get you high if you

were to take it so that's not acceptable

So if we don't accept the status quo what do

we want the reality to actually be and that's what

this advisory council I hope will help us to answer

You know we reported on a case in Granville County

where 4 children bought 4 vaping products right next to

their middle school

The products tested over the legal limit for THC

We went undercover last year purchased what was being branded

as legal products so they're stating that they are legal

products

80% of them were over the limit for THC

I mean is there anything that you can do within

your power now as governor to regulate this The challenge

is what the industry will say is it was higher

concentration THC that will get you high but it wasn't

above the level when you take the whole weight of

the product

A brownie is a very heavy thing heavier than a

leaf so if you have

0.3% or more in a leaf it's pretty easy to

determine yeah that's above the legal limit but if you

have 0.3 THC in a heavy product they will say

it's a legal product because it it falls within the

the federal law

What I wanna do is to set aside

The limits this 0.3 and sort of this myth of

what's hemp and what's marijuana and just realize that these

intoxicating THC products are there and come up with a

system that uh that has structure that has protections that

keeps kids out of the store that lets adults know

exactly what it is they're purchasing and that generates

Avenue so we can deal with the public health and

public safety consequences you know if we're gonna start enforcing

our driving while intoxicated or while high laws effectively we

need to state crime a lot more money and we

need to give law enforcement who are out on the

roads enforcing the laws more resources that takes revenue and

that's what some of this revenue can go towards

So you mentioned a couple states that you said right

now our system being so unregulated we are worse or

you know depending on more liberal uh some people would

say worse but more liberal more worse than than other

states like Colorado and Washington which have legalized recreational marijuana

that's what they describe it as so that's how I'm

going to describe it as well

Have you seen any states or cities that have legalized

uh marijuana or THC to a certain level that it

could serve as a model for us and how to

regulate products here Uh I've been to a few states

I haven't purchased it anywhere

Um I'm aware of how different states have wrestled with

it

I've heard from regulators

That the states that start with a medical marijuana system

and then come later with an adult recreational use system

end up having pretty irrational systems because the regulatory regime

for one is very different than the regulatory regime for

the other and it ends up people making weird decisions

in Maine what I've been told is that people end

up buying

Their marijuana for recreational use from the medical system because

there's no sales tax on the medical system and all

they do is get uh an easy to fill prescription

from somebody who then they go and get it for

cheaper um I think we can have one system

A cannabis control system where we know what's in the

product so that people know what they can take and

what they can tolerate and what they can't

I I think we need to get rid of these

candy wrappings

The idea that we would try to present and create

a product that is intended to attract kids to consume

when it is

Harmful to them is ridiculous and it's absolutely unacceptable so

I believe in plain packaging clearly uh delineated contents concentrations

let's have a system actually not very dissimilar from the

ABC system we have controlled sales and people know what

they're buying

So an ABC system where people would be able to

do what Go buy a product with THC in it

if you're an adult

If you're a kid wait till you're 21

What do you say to parents who worry about any

effort to legalize these products would lead to more children

getting their hands on it Two things

One is I share that concern

Anytime you come up with a system of control uh

then it then gives a signal that this is a

legal product so there may be some people using it

who otherwise wouldn't because of the social shame of breaking

the law but I'm really concerned about the status quo

you know when we outlawed alcohol alcohol consumption didn't go

away it just started existing in an illegal framework

I want to make sure that we bring this into

a regulated system where people know what it is they're

buying

Let's talk about how realistic it would be for the

General Assembly to adopt any recommendations that come out of

this advisory council because you served on Governor Cooper's uh

criminal justice task force

I interviewed you back in 2020 and I remember then

you were talking about the complexity of legalizing marijuana use

recreational marijuana use possessing small amounts but you all did

recommend decriminalizing

Possessing small amounts of marijuana how did you all come

to that and where did that effort go Yeah but

basically it it was a realization that there are a

ton of adults who use marijuana and my view is

if you are an adult and that's the choice you

wanna make you should be able to make that choice

legally

There are over 300,000 North Carolinians who have a criminal

record for simple marijuana uh crimes possession or or drug

payoffrenia

That is uh uh an anchor that they're carrying on

their shoulder for the rest of their lives because when

you go to apply for a job you have to

declare your criminal record when you go look for an

apartment they will ask for your criminal record

It ends up being a real barrier for people's successful

participation in in life and

I don't think that's right

I I don't think because you as an adult want

to smoke marijuana which again I'm now falling victim to

my own rule which is to say don't call it

marijuana anymore but you as an adult wanna take intoxicating

cannabis THC that you should have a criminal sanction and

so in my view

We should be decriminalizing it uh well I wanna go

to the next level where if you use it it's

not a crime at all uh but for people who

have this criminal record we should have a process to

expunge those criminal records so that you're not hampered for

what is a product that today is available down the

street

This is a change though from in 2020 because I

asked you directly in 2020 if you agreed with legalization

and you said it was too complex but you did

believe that decriminalization would be the fairest approach

How did you change If you go on any street

around any high school or any college campus these vape

shops are proliferating like mushrooms they're everywhere so the

Proliferation is so much greater today than it was 5

years ago

We live in a changed environment and so I'm reacting

to reality

The reality is intoxicating THC is widely almost universally available

in North Carolina

And there are no protections for our children and there

are honestly no protections for our adult use uh users

because they don't know what's in these products they come

from who knows where and what I want is for

any product that is sold in this state for the

adult to purchase it to know what's the concentration what

are the contents what am I taking OK so let's

talk about again that task force recommendation from 2020

You presented that to the I'm sure the legislature

Where did it go They didn't take it

Why would this be different Because the world is different

today in 2025 than it was five years ago because

these vape shops are everywhere because there are story after

story of teenagers just like you described getting there buying

these products consuming these products and having terrible physical and

psychological responses that a young man who went to college

with my sons uh had a psychotic episode based on

what he had consumed from these stores because you don't

know what's in them

And I don't wanna live in that world

What are parents telling you about their concerns with you

said a vape store popping up on every corner

They don't like it

They don't like the fact that a 15 year old

can go in there and legally buy these products today

uh and they want some order brought to the chaotic

reality in which we live

Medical marijuana we have seen that effort fail time and

time again in the legislature

Uh not quite sure where it's gonna go this session

but it's still being proposed and it it seems to

continue to to face roadblocks

How can you encourage lawmakers to see your point of

view that this is something that's affecting everybody and that

this is something they should adopt Well part of it

is just the public education and so Lena thanks for

covering the story

I don't think a lot of people really appreciate what's

going on and that's why I'm saying go to these

stores and see what's there and your jaw will hit

the table so I think part of it is making

sure that the legislature does know what's in fact happening

um but that's why I'm bringing in folks from both

parties both chambers so we can have a shared understanding

of what is happening

A shared appreciation for how other states are dealing with

it and then a shared strategy of what North Carolina

should do and that's what this advisory council is about

is how do we get from here to a better

place

You have the indigenous group from the Cherokees also included

on this council uh it is legal to sell

Marijuana on tribal lands what are you hoping to learn

from them about how that process is going Well I

just feel like we have a lot to learn because

they've done it so they can tell us what worked

for them what didn't work for them what they wish

they had done differently

That's part of why we asked them to to participate

Are they eager to participate Do they wanna share how

that process is going I'm certain they do yes

Uh back to the Republican support I know Senator Rabin

and Representative Bell are also uh going to be on

the council

They have been disappointed in the past though with legislation

that has failed

What's your conversation with them been like about what you're

trying to do here I I've articulated my concern about

what's happening

It it it it's happening today in North Carolina

Let's have some system that makes sense

Now they may have different approaches but if we hear

the same

Information and the same uh reports on what other states

are doing we may all come to the same conclusion

It may be that we're at a loggerheads and we

can't break the logjam uh but that's not where I

hope I I hope that we all decide to come

up with the same approach and then we can create

some momentum and energy behind that

Because there is the potential that maybe Senator Rabin thinks

legalized

THC use for adults that don't need it for medical

reasons that's too far

Uh how are you I mean are you just gonna

look at a a range of uh I guess recommendations

How how will that process work and what's the timeline

are you thinking on that Senator Rain will decide for

himself after taking in all this information what he thinks

is the right course

um I have my own views

I'm sure other pretty much every person has their own

views on these matters

Uh I hope the one thing that we can all

agree with is that the status quo is unacceptable and

if you agree with me that it is wrong for

kids to be able to go by intoxicating THC in

child attractive candy packaging then we've got to do something

You mentioned expunging the records of people who had small

possession of marijuana

Can you do that now Do you have that within

your power to do now We actually are looking into

this question about what is my authority for expunging under

my pardon and commutation authority and so that's something we

are looking at

You recommended this 5 years ago for then Governor Cooper

Is this a priority for you Because a lot of

people would be thinking if there's gonna be any legalization

effort I still have this on my record

I've been convicted

I can't get a job

It's difficult for me to get a home so this

could change their lives if you're able to do that

Is this a priority for you to commute those sentences

We can get the legislature to

Uh deal with and address and authorize adult use of

these intoxicating THC products then it would absolutely be a

priority for me

That would have to happen first maybe we just have

to look into all these questions that's why I I'm

looking for advice uh we intentionally named this an advisory

council

I do not have all of the answers

I have some philosophical views on matters but there are

real complicated practical implications of every decision you make and

so what I wanna do is have a lot of

really smart people with a a very diverse array of

perspectives to help inform what makes the most sense for

North Carolina

Final question for you is around the law enforcement component

of this

I I from what I've been reading and I've been

reading a lot about this uh

It seems like it's up to the discretion of prosecutors

at this point whether they even want to uh prosecute

small amounts of marijuana

So if you live in one county you may be

prosecuted for possessing

If you live in another you won't be

It's it's up in the air

How difficult do you think that is for prosecutors that

because it's not decriminalized statewide that it's just up to

them and do you think that should change Should there

be a uniform system Well I I do

Believe that prosecutors should have discretion in terms of addressing

crime in their communities because they have limited amount of

resources and they have to ask themselves and be answerable

to the public am I using my scarce resources most

effectively to keep people safe but to your question about

uniformity I do believe that we would be advantaged if

law enforcement knew hey these intoxicating THC products they're legal

as long as they're sold in this regulatory environment

uh alcohol again

If you wanted to get a still in your house

and make liquor and start selling it to your friends

that is still a crime even though alcohol is legal

to purchase and drink in North Carolina

And so I wanted to just have a system that

if you buy it through this normal system and you

know exactly what you're buying you know what it's concentration

is then you can be comfortable that you will not

be arrested no matter what county you live in

It sounds as if you're saying we've entered a new

era with THC

I hope that you can come to some type of

terms so that we can all agree on on what

that will be cannabis it's cannabis and it's the THC

is what gets you high and cannabis is the product

So what I'm concerned about is how much THC is

in the product and what is being sold in products

across North Carolina will get you high

It will get you very high and

I think that we shouldn't just put our heads in

the sand we can pretend like that's not the reality

but we're lying to ourselves and the fact that there

are no legal restrictions to protect our children in terms

of the packaging the advertising the flashing lights the concentrations

the age restrictions that is unacceptable

Have we reached a crisis point with this Is it

reaching enough children that

You think we're entering dangerous territory

Obviously there's an opioid crisis

Some people believe it's a gateway drug

Others in terms of research the CDC says is that

that's not quite uh supported by evidence that it's a

gateway drug but you still have a lot of people

that are concerned that these types of drugs can lead

to harder drugs

Yeah I am concerned about kids taking drugs

I just don't think it's a good idea

I I don't think it should be legal for them

to go buy it

I think that they should be kept out of the

vape shops by law enforceable against the license of the

retailer um so I think we can do a lot

more to protect young people and that's what's driving a

great deal of this effort

Anything else you'd like to say about this Governor Stein

I think not

Thanks Lena

Thank you thank you for your time

Good luck with this

Thank you