U.S. Sen. Thom Tillis on guns, debt, immigration and the economy
No state has qualified for the federal funding Congress passed last year to help implement red-flag gun laws, according to Sen. Thom Tillis, who was instrumental in the legislation.
Tillis, who sat down with WRAL News last week for a wide-ranging conversation, said this part of the bipartisan 2022 gun bill was meant to be strict: To get federal grant money, states must ensure strict due-process requirements before a judge can declare someone dangerous and take away their gun with an emergency protection order, which is also called a red flag.
“And I hope that states that consider red-flag laws understand up front what they have to put in place to satisfy me,” Tillis said.
Tillis also told WRAL News:
- He has no immediate plans to endorse in the 2024 North Carolina governor’s race, and that he won’t be a candidate himself.
- He sees a recession coming based on data he reviews as a member of key U.S. Senate committees. In a recent letter on debt ceiling negotiations, Tillis said the current U.S. economy is in free fall.
- Fort Bragg needs hundreds of millions of dollars to address barracks improvements and other issues on base
- He expects Congress to pass new subsidies to support early child care, an industry that will otherwise lose pandemic era federal subsidies later this year. He didn’t give a timetable or amount.
Here’s a transcript of that interview, edited for brevity and clarity.
WRAL: Are you going to endorse a candidate in the North Carolina Republican gubernatorial primary?
TILLIS: I'm waiting. Right now I'm looking at the candidates.
WRAL: Any particular thoughts to share now?
TILLIS: I think now's the time for fiscal restraint, getting our house in order. We need candidates that are speaking optimistically about this country, and I'm going to be looking at somebody that can package a really good, solid conservative message and make you feel good about it.
WRAL: I don't know that you're describing Lt. Gov. Mark Robinson.
TILLIS: I think we've got a primary to play out. And then the people of North Carolina, like me, one voter, can decide.
WRAL: On the debt ceiling — it's not about future spending, future tax cuts. It's about paying for what we've already done. Why does Congress not authorize the debt ceiling increase with the spending and tax policy? Why are we waiting and flirting with default?
TILLIS: We’re coming dangerously close to going into default for the first time in our nation's history. The adults need to get in the room and seek a compromise. But for [President] Biden, who voted against a debt ceiling increase when he was in the Senate, he needs to remember that when you have divided government, you need to compromise. And going in with a posture of clean [continuing resolution] or nothing is not good faith and bad leadership.
WRAL: Structurally, though, to separate the debt ceiling from the spending, how do you convince people that’s not foolish national policy?
TILLIS: They're intrinsically linked. So then you have whatever timeframe we come up with for increasing the debt ceiling. If we don't have some restraint on spending, we know it's going to be the same movie a month or a year from now. And I think that we need to go and tell the American people we're getting our debt under control. We're on a spinning path now for $40 trillion [in national debt]. We've got to be serious about the future of our children. We created this bill, we created this debt, this generation should solve the debt problem.
WRAL: On the debt ceiling, there are a number of cuts proposed by House Republicans. Are there particular spending cuts you do or do not support?
TILLIS: I think it's a good faith first offer. It's talking about limiting our spending. If you take a look at work requirements for able-bodied adults without children, for food assistance programs, that's reasonable. We're trying to break a cycle of government dependence and give people a job. If you take a look at revisiting the Inflation Reduction Act, which Democrats admit has green energy policy that is not going to be successful based on the way they passed it — come to a reasonable compromise there. I can look at what the House sent and separate my political priorities and say I don't know why the Biden administration wouldn't say, ‘items one, four, and five we can work on. The other two are off the table’ and let that be a basis for negotiation.
WRAL: One of the things Democrats have seized on are some veteran health care funding cuts.
TILLIS: Typical cheap shot. The same people that are talking about dramatic cuts to veterans, which they know is structurally impossible in the U.S. Congress, regardless of who's in power, are the same ones saying that children are going to be denied food. What part of “able-bodied adult without children” did they not understand in terms of that policy? So if they really want to get to a compromise, why don't you just speak the truth about provisions that you don't like?
WRAL: You were at Fort Bragg the other day. Are you satisfied with the progress and the scope of the barracks projects there?
TILLIS: No, not at all. We are woefully behind. I toured a couple of barracks that are being renovated now. We're trying to put lipstick on a pig. I mean, there are some buildings down there that need to be torn down. We're at risk, again, of not hitting our in-strength goals for recruiting. And a part of recruiting are the living conditions that these young recruits are going to live in. It's the childcare centers that their children may go to. And we've got hundreds of millions of dollars that need to be focused on Fort Bragg. We're also in a humidity-prone area between Fort Bragg and Camp Lejeune. A lot of what they're dealing with there are rotted floor joists. I went through a house that reminded me of the Lost Dutchman thing that they would have at fairs in the past. You felt like you were walking on a waterbed. That's all moisture and damage that's occurred over time. And some of these houses are 60, 70, 80 years old.
WRAL: You mentioned child care when it comes to military families. But that's a concern across the economy, to the point where businesses are struggling to get the employees they need because people have to stay at home with their kids. Congress put a lot of money into that during the pandemic. Is that something that you think will become a priority again, where we will see federal money to prop up that system going forward year after year?
TILLIS: I think so. You talk about single mothers, single fathers, people that want to work, people that want to go to school and maybe get qualified for a higher paying job, they have to have an option. And we simply don't have enough. There's a waiting list on Fort Bragg alone of hundreds of kids to get into these programs — which are some of the best in the country, incidentally. They're doing a good job for the children that they can serve. But we've got a chronic backlog nationally that we need to address.
WRAL: Returning to the debt ceiling, you and a number of your colleagues sent a letter — one of the things you said is that the economy is in a free fall. Do you really believe that the economy is in a free fall?
TILLIS: I do. I have said since the Democrats passed the first almost $2 trillion package that we we’re headed for a recession. That was two-and-a-half years ago. I also believed that the inflation was not transitory, and that's no longer in the lexicon. People realize that after a year-and-a-half, two years, it's probably not transitory. What a lot of people are not paying attention to is, a lot of the tax provisions in the Jobs and Tax Cut Act expire this year, if we don't reauthorize them. Small businesses are going to be paying a bigger tax bill next year, and when you’ve got to plan for more tax obligations you take capital expenditures off the table. You start using automation so that you can replace employees with technology. All of those are real threats, and I think we're going to see them come home to roost in the second half of this year.
WRAL: If you've been worried about a recession for two and a half years, at some point, isn't it time for a little bit of optimism, lest you talk yourself into a recession?
TILLIS: The problem here is that public perception causes a lot of it, but I sit on the Banking Committee, and I sit on the Finance Committee. So I'm watching things at a very granular level. Sometimes perceptions have the heaviest weight in going into a recession, but we've got a lot of fundamentals coming together at the worst possible time.
WRAL: On immigration. People, I don't know that they understand Title 42 versus Title 8, what's happening at the border and what needs to be done. You've said many times we need some comprehensive changes. Do you have a sense of what those comprehensive changes — after all these years we've discussed them — would look like?
TILLIS: It starts with border security. We've filed a bill on codifying Title 42. It's a very simple policy. It’s “remain in Mexico if you're an adult male.” And family units, everyone else has been coming over and record numbers — 3 million over the last 12 months. The policy change will be dramatic. There are thousands of people at the northern border of Mexico waiting. And the thing that's dangerous about that is that they're the most likely increase in crossings. The vast majority of people that come across the border go directly to a border patrol agent. And most of them request asylum, they get processed, they're released within a matter of days or a week. [Others] are intentionally trying to get past border patrol and get into this country. And when we catch them, most of them have bad records from wherever they're coming from. The shooter in Texas, who killed a child and several family members next door to him had been deported four times. He got back a fifth time, and he committed murder. Those are the kinds of people that we're likely to see more of after Title 42.
WRAL: You know, it's sad, you said ‘the shooter in Texas’ and my first thought was, which one?
TILLIS: Yeah, it's a problem. And most of them track back to profound behavioral health problems, which is why I'm glad we've made the biggest investment in behavioral health in the history of this country, when we passed the bipartisan Safer Communities Act.
WRAL: Is that the bill that had some incentives for states to pass red-flag laws?
TILLIS: It had incentives for states to pass red-flag laws that had due process and restitution, which is why I don't think any state right now that has red flag laws are qualified for the funding. We're looking, I'm looking at red states like Indiana, Florida. We're looking at the Tennessee bill now. Indiana and Florida wouldn't qualify for it, because it's a very rigorous process. And I hope that states that consider red-flag laws understand up front what they have to put in place to satisfy me. My office was primarily responsible for the due-process provisions. Most of them are going to find out they're going to make an application and they're going to be deemed as not adhering to due process within the law.
WRAL: North Carolina has not moved towards any sort of red-flag law. Does that disappoint you?
TILLIS: No, not at all. I made it very clear that we would not pass a national red-flag law, and that I would not support a bill that didn't make sure that the gun owner was guaranteed due process. But I thought this was something that the state should have control over, and that's how we implemented it.
WRAL: Do you think more gun laws are needed?
TILLIS: What I really hope states will do is pursue the behavioral health programs that we have in the state that's reducing mental health incarcerations by 50% and mental health emergency room admissions by 50%. That helps law enforcement, that helps communities, and more importantly, it helps people who could potentially be in a crisis. It's money we've never spent before and I'm proud to have been a part of it.
