Education Matters: A look at state accountability and assessments for students and schools

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Welcome to Education matters presented by the public school forum

of north Carolina

I'm your host Maryanne Wolf

Many of you are well aware of the state assessments

that students in north Carolina take each year and the

accountability system that assigns a letter grade to each traditional

public school

In our state the assessment and accountability systems play a

critical role in our students educational experiences opportunities and outcomes

Today we will dive into these important subjects and what

lies ahead with guests from the state Board of Education

the north Carolina School boards Association and caldwell County Schools

I'd like to welcome to the show Deanna Townsend smith

the director of board operations and policy for the north

Carolina State Board of Education Deanna

It is wonderful to have you with us today Marianne

thank you so much for extending this opportunity to engage

in this most important conversation with you

We often talk about assessment and accountability together but they

are in fact distinct and what they mean and their

purposes

Would you please share more about how you view assessment

and accountability often the discussion of testing and accountability is

lumped into one and there are distinct differences in my

view

Assessment is the process used to provide information on what

students know accountability used testing scores from those assessments to

determine effectiveness of teachers and schools

And it is ultimately one of the ways to determine

meeting the expectations of a sound basic education which is

our constitutional responsibility um to ensure that we are meeting

the needs of each and every student academically Testing is

a key lever to ensure an equity

You know the federal and state government have significant roles

and accountability and assessment

Would you share more about how they shape our systems

and even what students families and teachers experience every year

as you know in 2015 the Elementary and Secondary Education

Act of 1965 was re vent resulting in the every

student succeeds act which we refer to esa um which

provided states with the flexibility and responsibility to design their

state education accountability systems to meet current challenges

ECE establishes for all states the minimum requirements for state

accountability systems and then states can set additional thresholds for

student achievement

ECE requires the substantial weight of our accountability model to

be based on achievements of the required reading and math

assessments to administer tests that measure the breath and depth

of the state adopted content standards in reading and math

and grace grade through five in high school and then

science In grades five and 8

In 2013 our General Assembly created school performance grades that

assigned schools a single letter grade a through F school

letter grades are based on a combination of achievement and

growth scores

In most cases the current overall grade assigned to a

school represents the Growth Score waited at 20 and the

achievement score waited at 80 to render a score of

a total of 100

In my opinion the school performance grades are very simplistic

and do not best capture at school strengths and weaknesses

as we begin our transition and recovery from COVID-19 which

is obviously at the forefront of everyone's mind

How should we look at accountability moving forward I think

Covid has provided an opportunity in a number of different

areas but specifically accountability As we begin to recover from

COVID-19

We should use this as an opportunity to improve our

accountability system so that it is more holistic with more

of an emphasis on growth

Our accountability system should not only include academic measures but

non academic measures

We should use this time to develop and align visions

and goals across all federal plans together with esa such

as our Perkins five we owe A which is known

as the Workforce Innovation Act of 2014 so that we

are all aiming at the same target to achieve greater

impact with student experiences as they move through the system

Ultimately the system should include multiple measures which provide necessary

information on a student's preparedness for higher education robust civic

preparedness and the workforce

The system should and must communicate that we are meeting

student academic and non academic needs preparing them for whatever

path they choose once they fully matriculated through our K

12 system

Our State Board of Education and Department of Public instruction

recently created an Office of Equity

How does equity play a role in our accountability and

assessment systems In 2019 the state Board of Education adopted

a deaf initiative Equity for the state and it settled

on the definition being the belief and practice of ensuring

that every student is treated in a fair and just

manner providing the necessary allocation of resources for the success

of every student and eliminating discriminatory barriers to full participation

and opportunities for every student

Our accountability and assessment system should provide us with the

necessary information to determine what students know and information on

what barriers are hindering their success

Once we see those barriers we should eliminate those gaps

and expand the opportunity and access to each and every

student

The Office of Equity will further this work across the

state and develop recommendations for the State Board of Education

to consider to remove barriers that impede equity How do

you anticipate the leandra plan affecting our work in the

coming year If you recall when the state board started

started his earlier work with as a plan we wanted

to have a more holistic system of accountability and I

think that this provides us an opportunity to ensure those

multiple measures are included in partnership with our general Assembly

and other partners to make sure that we have a

system that values growth more that we ensure pre cater

three readiness that we make sure that students are college

and career ready uh and that we have some measures

in there to ensure school quality to meet like the

equity and whole child needs for every student

Our accountability and assessment systems affect many people across the

state and they also have a profound impact on how

we prioritize certain aspects of school and learning opportunities every

single day in our schools quite frankly

Whose voices should we include in this discussion about rethinking

our current systems I think that this is uh this

is at the heart of equity right whose voice should

we include And I think ultimately at the end of

the day each and every voice matters accountability and assessment

systems affect and inform many decisions

We must include all voices

Be that policymakers thought leaders practitioners community groups civic organizations

families and most importantly students as we rethink our current

systems

When we do this we build urgency and collective will

addressing the needs of each and every child embracing uh

the guiding priorities that have been established for the state

which are equity and a whole child

Thank you so much for being here Deanna

After the break we will be joined by Don Phipps

the superintendent of caldwell County Schools and Leanne Winner the

executive director of the north Carolina School boards Association Education

matters is brought to you each week in part by

town bank serving others enriching lives

Joining us now are Dr Don Phipps the Superintendent of

caldwell County Schools and Leanne Winner the executive director for

the North Carolina School Boards Association

Thank you both so much for being here today

Thanks for having us

Thank you for having us

Will you please share more about our current assessments and

accountability model and how it affects your schools and students

It's a big question and something that we're really looking

at and we hope to see some reform initiatives that

happened in the years to come

We know that's a big undertaking in a big task

When you look at the assessment and accountability I think

one of the big pieces is you have to decouple

as we've heard earlier in the program of what exactly

assessment and accountability are but the impacts are felt by

students

There felt by our parents our teachers our principals

Uh there are wages that are tied to outcomes decisions

are made on whether or not students are promoted are

not

And the concern that I have about the accountability and

assessment models that we have our that a student's career

for that year

The historical perspective for that year are based on what

happens on a single day in the life of a

child on a single test

And it's troubling because I don't feel like it shows

a clear picture but there's a lot of stress

There's a lot of anxiety

There's a great deal of banks that individuals have when

it comes up to testing season and I wish that

we had a more authentic way to measure what students

have learned throughout the school year that has multiple measures

So we have what we have in place

We've worked with that but I think it's time and

there are several groups that are working right now to

look at putting ideas on the table and I hope

some of those come to fruition in the years to

come

Thank you so much done for outlining that and Leanne

as you work with schools districts across our state

What are the challenges But maybe also opportunities you see

with the north Carolina assessments and the accountability model it's

really important that we define what it is

We're trying to do with the accountability system

Um We've really lost that um through the years if

it ever really was defined what you know what is

the purpose Um we've put layer upon layer on top

of um what we're using it for to where it

feels very punitive To school districts and two staff across

the state

Um Are we using it primarily as a way to

pay people I mean that is obviously a goal that

it could be but that was not the original goal

and it's not really set up to do that um

in an effective manner

So I think the state really needs to come up

with what the purpose is first

Um and then once we know the purpose um I

think we can come up with a meaningful measure

Um and then it will need to be rolled out

and people will need to understand what that is

We definitely want to talk today a little bit about

where we go longer term but I also know that

right now we're in this hopefully transition and recovery from

covid 19 and I'd love to hear just a little

bit more Leanne about how should we look at this

this year and maybe even next year What do we

need to happen immediately as then we work on this

longer term plan

I think that everyone realizes there has been substantial learning

loss or not as much gain as we would see

in a typical school year across the state

Um and so we really need to make sure that

for this year and probably the next few years that

this is not viewed as something that is punitive um

that we really need to find out where these kids

are as they're coming back into school um and getting

ready for next school year

Um and how do we bridge if you have a

student who was at great level and now is not

a great level How do we bridge that without making

labeling them Um and doing long term permanent damage to

their learning journey don as we shift a little bit

too thinking obviously now but also into the future

I think it's important to reference that our state accountability

model has designated schools with letter grades for many years

How do they affect your schools in your district And

how well do they depict the learning opportunities and outcomes

that are happening there It's a great question

It has a great impact on us

And I think I go back 15 years or so

ago 20 years ago when I was a principal in

Cumberland County

And I started to realize when I grew up I

was in a military family my family landed where they

landed and we went to school wherever that school was

And what I realized as I became the principle is

that we had many parents who were interviewing and going

out and examining schools and school districts to determine where

they wanted their students to be

And when you have a letter grade that depicts quality

in the minds of those who are viewing that they

take it for what it is

And my concern is that when we look at the

letter grades in north Carolina And I went back and

looked at research back to 1718 there were zero F

schools

And when you look at the poverty ratings of schools

it's a remarkable number of how many of our uh

low wealth schools or our our schools that have poverty

ratings to 50% or greater

There there are very few of them represented in the

letter A and they're almost all represented in the letter

F

And when I look at that it's a proxy measure

of poverty in our school system

And it goes back to the leandro conversation and what

school districts are able to do

There are so many other indicators as I am in

and out of schools on a regular basis

I know what's going on in our buildings and to

simply reflect a letter grade based on test scores or

a few other indicators is just not comprehensive enough

And we have met and we've talked about that and

I do hope that's an area for reform to give

a better more comprehensive picture

Again I want to restate that when we say that

a school or a student or a teacher or principles

year is going to be marked by what happens on

a single test score on a single day is just

not good enough

We need to have a better measure that's more comprehensive

that shows work that's been done throughout the school year

And for schools that can be many indicators that are

academic it can also deal with social and emotional needs

that exist within our schools which is a great need

in public education right now and and across the society

for that matter of the graduation rates and and what

are we doing with our pathways at high school for

career in college and promising the the credentials that can

be earned

There's just lots of indicators that can be put in

to make a better picture at a clear picture

That's more descriptive and a better example of what's really

going on inside of a building

And we want parents to know that we want them

to have the really true comprehensive picture based on what

they're looking at

And and I think that if we can reform those

letter grades none of us are afraid of accountability

We want to be held accountable

I think many of us would say we want that

opportunity to showcase the great work that's going on in

our schools by our teachers and our students

But we wanted to be fair and we wanted to

be comprehensive

Do you work across our state with all the different

districts Do you see very similar requests And are there

any additional indicators you might add to that list that

Don has shared There was a proposal a few years

ago through a pilot project to do measures Um four

times during the year

And there appeared to be I would say some backlash

from folks that essentially now you are making it for

many um E

O

G

S

And that that was going to put too much stress

on teachers and too much stress on students

Um But then folks don't like the it's one day

and so I'm not quite sure where that balance comes

between spreading it out throughout the course of the year

um or having it one day and I think we

may just have to make a decision and decide okay

we're gonna do it this way and there was some

pressure from teachers that it was going to make it

so that there um they did not have as much

flexibility about when they taught things

Um so I mean it was a pretty robust discussion

a couple of years ago and a few districts moved

into a pilot project and then it seems to I

have never come to fruition um as far as other

measures

Um I think there is still a big debate over

the actual test themselves and whether the questions and how

many questions there should be

Obviously there needs to be enough questions that you can

have the statistical measures correctly for it

But um I think that is something that still needs

to be talked about as we move through this process

One of the things I know you all have also

talked about is this designation of low performing schools and

how it affects not only students is don talked about

but also the communities in which our schools operate

And I wonder if you'd like to share a little

bit about that as well

So the current definition of a low performing school is

if you are a D

R

N

F

School um for it's a certain number of years um

and you either did not meet growth or you met

growth

Um And so the debate at least the last few

years has been whether that met growth should be considered

or not

Um And we have proposed bills as an organization to

the General Assembly which have passed the House but not

passed the Senate to remove from that definition met growth

because if you've met growth you're doing what you're supposed

to do for that school year

You have overall met a year's worth of growth for

the students in your school

They just started out behind based on the grade of

the deer the F

Um but there has not seemed to have been much

appetite for that on the Senate side

Um and so we believe as part of this whole

package that definition needs to be looked at as well

it is a label and it is it sends a

message in communities

Um and again there is a high correlation between those

schools that are considered low performing and poverty don

As we wrap up here

Something I'd love to ask you is there is clearly

interest in moving forward and thinking differently about our assessment

system but also our accountability system and who do you

think should be at the table Um as we go

forward thinking about your own district in your experience to

make sure that we actually design as you said authentic

opportunities to both assess but also have an accountability system

that really measures what we're looking for as we define

those two terms and we think about how we operationalize

those in our daily work

You know the answer would be that we need to

have a voice from everyone and we can't bring everybody

to the table but certainly our business community we all

are working with business partners now on business advisory councils

that exist in all of our school districts but we

have so many stakeholders and stakeholder groups that we need

to hear their feedback because their perspectives are all a

little different

And some are using the outcomes of these tests and

accountability measures in different ways

And I think we need to understand that we need

to understand the impact that it has and there may

be some things that were not assessing or data that

needs to be collected that we need to uh I'm

aware that there are different guidelines

The federal government has certain guidelines in the state has

certain guidelines and sometimes those are different and some of

our models may not work with one and they work

with another

So we have to figure out how to balance that

and calibrate the work that's being done

But I think about the folks that I have the

pleasure to interact within our community on a regular basis

and I certainly wouldn't want to have their voices at

the table

And in some cases these may be individuals that you

normally don't think about in an educational environment but they

are stakeholders because they may be working with our graduates

when they graduate they may be concerned about the content

of the academic content and the classes that are being

taken what our curriculum looks like

All of those things are pieces that play in to

the overall big picture of what happens in our schools

Well thank you both so much for being here

We clearly have a lot of work to do but

I really appreciate your voices and all of your thoughts

and also just elevating what we need to do for

our students

Um so thank you for being here

Thank you

Thank you

After the break this week's final word North Carolina's assessment

and accountability systems play a critical role in what happens

in our schools during the entire school year

What we as a state measure how we measure it

and even when we measure indicates what we see is

academically important and affects how we use our time and

resources in our schools

Strong assessment and accountability systems are important so that we

can understand where our students are and ensure that all

students have access to a sound basic education

However our current systems may not lead to the learning

opportunities and instructional experiences

Research demonstrates to be most effective and North Carolina's measures

may tell us more about the socio economic status of

our students families or zip codes than the progress our

students are making

We have many scenarios where the rigidity of our assessment

system and accountability system drive what opportunities are available for

our students

For example the fact that end of grade and end

of course assessments are only available at very limited times

of the year implies and often drives the concepts that

all students should be progressing at the same pace to

take the one day measure on a given day

This affects how schools view the viability of competency based

approaches meeting individual needs interest in strengths and shifting schedules

and other structures within a school

North Carolina is at an important juncture in how we

approach assessment and accountability for our students

Research shows us that the most effective assessment and accountability

systems for our students reliably assess multiple measures of student

performance and provide accountability for those measures To move towards

the school

North Carolina has a solid blueprint to follow in the

Leandro 8-year comprehensive remedial plan recently submitted to the court

assessments should inform instruction and provide data and information that

helps our education systems schools teachers families and students more

effectively meet the needs of individuals

This is assessment for learning rather than simply assessment of

learning

If a teacher or a student is not able to

learn from the assessment and if the assessment does not

inform the learning experience of the student it is not

for learning accountability is important to ensure that every student

in our state has access to a sound basic education

and that factors including zip code race ethnicity socioeconomic status

or existence of a disability do not determine the educational

outcomes of our students

Our accountability system should provide us with the data and

information that we need to ensure that our schools meet

the needs of every student and that our students have

access to equitable education and learning opportunities

Thank you for taking time with us to learn and

think about education

That's all for today

And we'll see you next week