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Gay marriage debate, same-sex marriage
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US Supreme Court cases unlikely to impact NC marriage amendment

Published: 2012-12-14 10:31:00
Updated: 2012-12-14 11:30:28

Melissa Hodges' daughter didn't lose her health insurance after May's marriage amendment vote, but there was a scramble and some days of anxiety.

Hodges and her wife, Libby,  were married in Canada in 2006, and their family were some of the faces used in the spring campaign against North Carolina's constitution amendment banning same-sex marriage. That amendment passed with more than 60 percent of the vote.

The Hodgeses worried that their 5-year-old, who is now in kindergarten and was featured in a television ad against the amendment, could lose her health coverage due to legal uncertainty created by the amendment. 

As the U.S. Supreme Court takes up two cases related to same-sex marriage, Hodges says her family still faces a good deal of uncertainty about legal arrangements heterosexual married couples take for granted. Legal experts say its unlikely that the court's anticipated decisions will do much to clarify North Carolina's legal situation.

"It's frustrating," said Hodges, who recounted how the City of Durham removed her daughter from Libby's health insurance policy when the couple switched Melissa to health insurance offered by her own employer. That situation is now straightened out, but Hodges said she worries they're one legal opinion away from having to scramble to find a new insurance arrangement for their daughter.

Gay couples in North Carolina weren't exactly on the firmest of legal footing before voters passed the marriage amendment in May. A state law already prohibited gay marriage. The constitutional amendment is drawn somewhat broader, prohibiting any recognition of "domestic legal unions" other than marriage between a man and a woman.

During the campaign, opponents of the amendment argued that it would spark a series of unintended consequences. Families like the Hodgeses would have problems with their insurance, unmarried domestic violence victims could lose legal protections and courts could find it difficult to settle separations of gay couples legally married in other states who move here.

Thus far, very little of that fallout has come about. 

"Six months is just way too short a period of time to sort out constitutional questions," said Maxine Eichner, a professor at the University of North Carolina School of Law who was one of the leading legal voices arguing against the amendment. State courts will have to grapple with the meaning of the amendment before a federal challenge to the law can be considered, she said.

Rep. Paul "Skip" Stam, a lawmaker and lawyer who pushed for the amendment, disagrees with Eichner on the potential consequences and harms of the amendment. But he agrees that there has been little practical effect so far.

'It was very much worthwhile," Stam said. "The principle problem at which it was directed was there were numerous state courts in other states that found a right for same-sex marriage in their constitutions. This stops that for North Carolina."

"And of course, I do believe it does stop cities and counties and the state from providing benefits on the basis of a purported marriage that is not defined in the constitution," Stam said.

Even that seems to have hit an uneasy status quo. Cities like Winston-Salem that were considering offering benefits backed off in the aftermath of the amendment. Mecklenburg County, which offered benefits to same-sex couples, still does despite the objection of at least one county commissioner. Attorney General Roy Cooper has been asked for an opinion about the programs, but thus far has not issued legal direction to the cities. 

The UNC School of Government did write a memo on the matter, which concluded: the amendment "does not make any changes to the legal authority
of public employers to provide domestic partner benefits to its employees."

The major active lawsuits related to same-sex couples in the state are challenging North Carolina's prohibition against second parent adoption – only one parent in an unmarried couple can legally adopt here – but that case is still working its way through the lower courts. 

As North Carolina grapples with those issue, the U.S. Supreme Court is looking at two marriage-related cases, likely to be heard at the end of March.

The first one, United States v Windsor, challenges a part of the federal Defense of Marriage law, or DOMA. In that case, Edith Windsor lives in New York, a state that recognizes her marriage to her now deceased wife. The suit questions whether the federal government can deny benefits or favorable tax treatment to citizens who live in states that recognize their marriages. Stam, Eichner and others say that, since North Carolina doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, any outcome in the Windsor case is unlikely to have an impact here.

The other case to be examined by the court is Hollingsworth v. Perry, which challenges the validity of California's voter-imposed ban on same-sex marriage. While that seems to be a parallel with North Carolina, the legal arguments and particular facts in the case may limit its impact to California.

"It depends on whether they make broad statements beyond what is necessary to decide the case," Stam said of the court. He and others seem to think that is unlikely. 

"My best guess is the court will rule more narrowly," Eichner said, offering an opinion that echoes other legal scholars.

That would leave North Carolina's law intact, even at a time when other states are pushing the opposite direction on same-sex marriage issues. In November, six months after North Carolina's ballot measure passed, four states either rejected marriage bans or affirmed marriage rights for same-sex couples. 

Whether that marks a sea change in the political and practical direction of the marriage debate is unclear. But it is undisputed that there are states that have created much more favorable legal environments for same-sex couples. It's a disparity Melissa Hodges said she and Libby considered following North Carolina's amendment vote.

"We did. We really did. But it's a big undertaking to move and find jobs for both us," Hodges said.

The couple just completed the training needed to become a foster family, and their daughter is already making friends in school. To boot, most of their family is in Georgia, so moving to a friendly state would mean moving even farther away.

Those practical considerations play out with gay couples throughout the state, said Jen Jones, communications director for Equality North Carolina, one of the groups involved in fighting the amendment. Jones said many gay and lesbian couples will choose to stay so they can push North Carolina to follow the other states that voted in November. And, she said, that's a conversation likely to go on for a while.

"No one has told me that whatever the Supreme Court does, it will be a magic bullet in terms of Amendment One," Jones said, referring to the commonly used name of the amendment. "Amendment One will be on the books for a long time."

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"I'm more than confident that the courts and eventually the people will side with equality over religious superstition on this topic.

That is because you want this overturned. If you use rational thought you know the statement you were responding to is correct." ncouterbanks69

History is a much better predictor of the future than people's wants or wishes. That's rational thinking.

I voted FOR amendment one along with the vast majority of other good folk in NC. We won, you gays and lesbians lost. Get over it or move on.

"this nonsense has nothing to do with equality"- if you were one of the people being taxed at a higher rate because you were gay, you would see the difference. You don't see it because it doesn't affect you. Why should a gay, legally married couple pay a tax that a straight, legally married couple doesn't have to pay when one of them dies? It's NOT fair, it's NOT equal and should be stopped. There is no valid reason for it. Straight married couples aren't taxed any differently, why should gay couples?

Gay and lesbians couples don't have rights in NC. If you don't like it, get out and find a gay and lesbian state, if one exists.

Where does one draw the line? If you allow gay marriage between consenting adults, why not allow marriage to several consenting adults? Why not allow marriage to consenting brothers/sisters? Or other consenting adults within a family?

"I do not have equality.....no one does"- what are you trying to say? You have rights that married, gay couples DON'T have.

I do as far as marriage goes yes. But we are FAR from equal outside of that as well. I can't smoke in a bar...even if the bar was owned by a smoker and he/she wanted it to be a smoking bar. Now that is lame and takes away smokers rights. Now you may not smoke so you will say oh but it hurts others. Well not if they don't come to that bar. The huge inequality is the lazy entitlement society that exists today both straight and gay. They live off the work of others so how in the heck is that equal? We are not a society full of equals so what makes this one so special? It is not except to those it will benefit, just like my examples below. Until there is more equality (true equality) in this country this needs to remain as is.

"If you use rational thought"- rational thought is what is overturning these silly bans and allowing people to get the equality they deserve."

this nonsense has nothing to do with equality.

"The people of NC have spoken and no judge will overturn the voice of the people. Period"

Sadly, that is not true.

"I do not have equality.....no one does"- what are you trying to say? You have rights that married, gay couples DON'T have. How is THAT right? They pay into the system just like you and should be protected in just the same way. This arbitrary denial of protection of property and choices doesn't serve the nation in any way that is helpful. It only divides and creates problems that shouldn't be there. If a couple is legally married in ANY state, it should be legal in any other state. That's being fair- we honor driver's licenses and straight marriages- why not other things. Some states even honor CCPs with no problems. We can protect the right to a concealed weapon but not to loving couples...what have we become? At the national level, we should ALL be equal. If you are married in Maryland, that marriage is just as valid as one performed in Utah- as it should be, and the federal government has no valid, legitimate reason to deny equal protection of those marriages.

Jesus does not endorse sin, which includes a lot. Even my bad thoughts.

Will be glad to explain the bible with someone. Levitical law was for the Nation of Israel. You should only quote God when you understand the contexts. We must handle it rightly. Please read Romans one entirely to understand. New testament commentary is suggested. Perhaps John MacArthur.

Don't shoot the messenger.

those of you who were dumb enough to vote for Amendment One also hurt straight couples in domestic partnerships.

LOL....still sore are we? Domestic partnerships are scams trying to milk more money out of the government. No need for them either. Get married (even if "gay"), don't get married whatever. The great people (well some of us) of NC voted and we all know the landslide it was. Get over it. I am already over Obama having another four years and that is what we need to talk about if you want to talk about "d" voters.

"Let my taxes stop supporting the lazy then we can talk equality." ncouterbanks69

Exactly!!!!

"I cannot and will not support homosexuality"- no one is asking you to support what people are. Just to stand out of the way of equality. As far as insurance goes, it's none of your business or anyone elses. If they qualify for it, then they do. Gays don't get to opt out of paying for straight couples at the state level, yet you want to be able to deny others while having those you deny pay for YOU- do you not see how silly that sounds?

" I'd be forced to pay (through my taxes) benefits due to a relationship that I find morally wrong"- and you wouldn't notice any increase in your taxes any more than all the gay people that have to pay for straight people's benefits. Now if we can have a gay exception- so that gays don't have to pay for schools or benefits for straights, then you MIGHT have an arguement...but as it stands you have nothing but crying and wringing of hands with no proof that this would cost you or anyone else any more than what we ALL pay into the system. Why should gays pay into a system they get no benefits from ? Explain that to the tens of thousands of us gays that work, pay our taxes (and benefits for straight couples) and just want what everyone else has- a shot, a chance, a grasp at the golden ring of happiness that other's take for granted why gays shouldn't have that right.

If homosexuals want to live together and call themselves married, I'm not going to stop them. But don't force me to pay for their insurance if they're state employees. I cannot and will not support homosexuality. albegadeep

Oh, on the contrary. You WILL support homosexuality when the Supreme Court ultimately rules for marriage equality. It might not be next year, but I assure you that in the next few years you will pay your fair share, just as everyone else does for the benefit of society. I don't like paying for some ignorant bigot's child to go to school, but I do, because hopefully that child will become informed and learn to respect equality. I'm not gay, but I have a gay brother ( he is legally married in DC) I assure you that the change is coming, even to the South.

I will also add those of you who were dumb enough to vote for Amendment One also hurt straight couples in domestic partnerships.

LOL...the dumb ones votes against it.

"If you use rational thought"- rational thought is what is overturning these silly bans and allowing people to get the equality they deserve.

I do not have equality.....no one does. Fix the real problems to where that is actually possible and then there is an argument. Until then it is the right thing to do and it will remain in place as we both really know.

I always find it surprising that christians focus so much on homosexuality when the bible has so many other rules. According the bible "god" gave the 10 commandments, correct? The very same commandments you want in schools, courthouses etc. Those must be "god's" most important laws. No mention of gays there. But you know what the 10 commandments does contain, as commandment #2! People seem to think the second commandment says you aren't supposed to make a graven image of God, and that's it. But you are not to make any graven images of anything in heaven, in the earth, or in the water. This would include no graven images of fish, moles, worms, birds, shrimp, ants, and all sorts of things. One must wonder why God was so worried about these things that he felt the need to put these ahead of murder and stealing. I mean "god" put importance on this, why are fundamentalists not burning museums to the ground? Jesus NEVER mentioned gays by the way.

Romans 1:25-32 ESV sonny66

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19) Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27) Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17) Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

This shows you that it really is scary that people want to make the Bible part of the law. Not to mention it sheds light on why Christians are so overly oppressive to those who don't share their belief. Sick, sick, sick. It can also be said that any person who uses the Bible to justify beating a homosexual, is a hypocrite if he doesn't adhere to all of these laws.

"On the contrary. As a taxpayer who believes that gay marriage is wrong, if it was legalized, then I'd be forced to pay (through my taxes) benefits due to a relationship that I find morally wrong. It certainly does affect me!" albegadeep

Are you saying that if I find marriage between Christians to be morally wrong, I shouldn't have to pay taxes that benefit their relationships?

Atheistswillrule, do you actually have a counter-argument? Or just name-calling?

If homosexuals want to live together and call themselves married, I'm not going to stop them. But don't force me to pay for their insurance if they're state employees. I cannot and will not support homosexuality.

On the contrary. As a taxpayer who believes that gay marriage is wrong, if it was legalized, then I'd be forced to pay (through my taxes) benefits due to a relationship that I find morally wrong. It certainly does affect me! albegadeep

How very charitable of you. And you wonder why fundamentalist bigots get such a bad name.

Romans 1:25-32 ESV

because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things

I will also add those of you who were dumb enough to vote for Amendment One also hurt straight couples in domestic partnerships.

It may not impact the horrid amendment, but it may show how backwards we still are in NC.

"[Gay marriage] doesn't affect any of you who oppose it." Welfare is a trap

On the contrary. As a taxpayer who believes that gay marriage is wrong, if it was legalized, then I'd be forced to pay (through my taxes) benefits due to a relationship that I find morally wrong. It certainly does affect me!

The overwhelming majority of people who oppose marriage equality say that they do so for " religious" reasons. Fortunately we do have separation of church and state in our nation. The Supreme Court will rule in Mrs. Windsor's favor. She was a legally wed woman who was taxed at a higher rate than her legally married heterosexual counterparts. That is injustice. They will also rule in favor of the overturning of prop 8 in California. 1000's of couples who had been granted legal marriage by the courts had their rights denied by a vote. With California free to marry, along with the other 9 states and DC, 1/3 of Americans will then live in states that respect marriage equality. The other states laws will soon be struck down after that as unconstitutional, as they should be.

Let the people love and get married! You don't like gay marriage, don't get married to a gay. Other than that, how about keeping your nose in your own business, baby!

Let my taxes stop supporting the lazy then we can talk equality.

"If you use rational thought"- rational thought is what is overturning these silly bans and allowing people to get the equality they deserve. Rational thought says that two people getting married and having that relationship recognized by their government harms no one and changes nothing in the fabric of this great nation, it only makes us stronger. There is NO valid state reason to deny equality to gays- none. They can't use the "protect the children" arguement because you don't HAVE to have children to get married. They can't use the "traditional christian" line either- you don't have to be christian or religious at all to be married, nor married in a church for it to be legal in the eyes of the law. This was and still remains just a mean spirited attempt to keep those that are different from gaining equality- nothing more, nothing less. It has the same validity as the anti-racial marriage laws. It serves no public good at all, it divides us for no reason at all.

Unlikely to impact? Not until a judge rules otherwise. The will of the voters don't mean nothin' to these self-declared intellects.

I'm more than confident that the courts and eventually the people will side with equality over religious superstition on this topic.

That is because you want this overturned. If you use rational thought you know the statement you were responding to is correct.

Justice....we all know this was the right thing.

Conservatives understand that this is a battle they will ultimately lose, just like every other battle they have fought over the centuries. They are just trying to delay the inevitable for as long as possible.

"It won't be changed in my lifetime"- I'm willing to take that bet...unless you plan or passing on in the next 4-6 years :-) I'm more than confident that the courts and eventually the people will side with equality over religious superstition on this topic.

Gay marriage doesn't affect me at all in any way, shape, or form. It doesn't affect any of you who oppose it. Banny gay marriage doesn't stop people from being in gay relationships either. It wouldn't bother me in the least for gays to get married in NC and I voted against #1. I just wish they respected my private property rights, but equality only goes one way I guess. Oh...psst...I'm a Conservative with a dash of Libertarian.

So, basically, opponents to the bill were making stuff up to try to prevent its passage. Too much of that garbage is going on around our legislature.

"'It was very much worthwhile," Stam said. "The principle problem at which it was directed was there were numerous state courts in other states that found a right for same-sex marriage in their constitutions. This stops that for North Carolina."

I find it so ironic that the party most interested in "defending freedom" is also the most interested in defining that "freedom." I agree that equality will come to NC - we have always been the "New South" state - and we will prove it (eventually) once again, I am sure.

Let the people love and get married! You don't like gay marriage, don't get married to a gay. Other than that, how about keeping your nose in your own business, baby!

"Amendment One will be on the books for a long time."

It won't be changed in my lifetime. And I doubt it will be changed in my children's or grandchildren's lifetime.

As a memeber of the Republican party, the passage of Amendment One shames me. The fact they (NC GOP) were unwilling to put this Amendment on the General Election ballot is the very definition of cowardice.

Equality will come to NC eventually. Our nation is working its way to being the land of "equality" we tell the rest of the world we are....but aren't really there yet.

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