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  • Timbo Jul 24, 2007

    wufpak7483, the bible "says" a ton of conflicting pooh, depending on the translation or mis-translation. Personally, I think your god is a figment of your wild imagination and allows you live in a constant state of ignorant bliss. But if it makes you feel better and helps you get through the day, who am I to ridicule or feel sorry for you? What is irritating is the "absolutisms" you spout that are completely inane. Luv you back...

  • wufpak7483 Jul 24, 2007

    Hammerhead, your one sentence is a great summation of the entire New Testament and God's word. Thanks! My degree is not in theology, so I can just say, it is by faith that we believe, and some things are just what they are, black and white. Love you guys and gals!

  • moglinferno Jul 24, 2007

    I'm actually a she & since I don't believe in the bible it doesn't matter what it says. You try to prove your points from what comes from it. Just because of what it says doesn't make it true. A book written by man. Yeah, okay "through" men from god...still written by man & cut & pasted...I don't believe in it. You are welcome to, if that's what makes you happy & what helps you get by, I'm glad for you. I don't think I'll ever "open my heart & mind to god" and I'm okay with that. I just wish that people would assume I'm a terrible person or they take "pity" on me & offer prayers for my sad soul.

  • Hammerhead Jul 24, 2007

    Wufpak, by your logic you could be the most altruistic humanitarian in the history of the world, but if you haven't accepted Christ....no heaven for you?
    Absurd.

  • wufpak7483 Jul 24, 2007

    Timbo, the Bible clearly explains the path to Heaven prior to Christ and the path after his death and resurrection. You can read it yourself or stop by any church and have them explain it to you. Moglinferno unfortunately has rationalized how it will "suck" for him if he has made an eternally fatal choice. That realization, at least in part, may open his heart and mind to God later. God gave us free will (also in the Bible), so the decision is yours. The absolute truth is Christ (also in the Bible) and knowing him is beyond nice! It's forever!

  • the river rat Jul 23, 2007

    Well stated moglinferno. A person's characture is not defined by the presence of a fish emblem on their car.

  • moglinferno Jul 23, 2007

    That last part isn't going to you doodad, it was to that other person who's comment has been deleted. Good, so WRAL isn't totally biased.

  • moglinferno Jul 23, 2007

    Doodad - No, I don't think my way is the only & right way. There just might be a god, there just might be a heaven & hell and all that. I may be wrong, but I personally can't fathom it. You all may be right.

    We are ruthless? All non-Christians are ruthless? Just because I don't believe doesn't mean I don't have morals & values. I am just as (or more) compassionate, understanding, tolerant, loving, and forgiving as you. I live by what I feel is right or wrong. I am not a terrible person for not sharing your beliefs & you should be ashamed of yourself to assume so.

  • mindprobe Jul 23, 2007

    Perhaps they honestly do care, doodad; but announcing their intention to pray for someone else during the course of an internet discussion is akin to "standing in synagogues and on street corners" - making sure that everyone knows just how devout and prayerful they are.

    I think JC had something to say about that in Matthew 6...

    Not to mention that it's just that sort of unwanted proselytizing that ticks off the people who they're praying for - and a lot of us who are just reading about it.

  • doodad Jul 23, 2007

    moglinferno, you're right it's your life. Aren't you convinced that your way is the only way for you? If people suggest they pray for you, it's because they care about you. Again, you are not alone in this world.

  • moglinferno Jul 23, 2007

    When people used to hear that I didn't believe, the first question they would ask me is, "Well, how do you think we got here?" I hate that question. Frankly, I don't know & I don't give a rats a$$. All I know is we are. We're here trying to survive in this crazy crazy world, trying to get by & enjoy everyday that we're here. It ticks me off to no end when people say, "Oh, well I'll pray for you." I don't need your prayers, its not going to do anything. If I wanted prayer, I'd do it myself. I just don't understand how so many people are closed minded & KNOW that they're way is the "only & right" way. It may be & when I'm burnin in hell, that'll really suck for me. I just can't live my life out of fear of what will happen when I die.

  • Hammerhead Jul 23, 2007

    How 'bout them miracles?
    Water into wine? Parting of the sea? Rod turned into a serpent? Lazarus rises from the dead? Walking on water?
    Sorry, I'm buying none of it.

  • doodad Jul 23, 2007

    my error, thought you wrote 9 YO.

  • doodad Jul 23, 2007

    moglinferno, you are absolutely correct about Privette. He put himself upon a pedestal and those who choose to be spiritual leaders must be more commited with their faith and actions than followers. You made a decision when you were nine years old as I did when I was twelve. My experience was undeniably spiritual and I am sorry that yours was not. You are not alone in this world.

  • Timbo Jul 23, 2007

    Dang wufpak7483,("he only way to heaven is through Christ."), I guess Solomon, Adam, Moses and the rest of the old testament characters that died before your "christ" was born went to Hell! It must be nice to know the absolute truth like you! Absolutely nutty!!!

  • Nope Jul 23, 2007

    "The only way to heaven is through Christ. I will continue to pray for you and ask all others that read this to pray also."

    Crazy cultists!

  • moglinferno Jul 23, 2007

    The way I see it, if you want to believe in this god, go for it. Don't push it on me & start spitting verses, I've heard them. I was extremely active in church, accepted jesus christ as my lord & savior...until 9th grade. Everyone said it was a phase...not quite. I started to see the hypocrisy in these people and I can honestly say that majority of the Christians I have ever known are hypocrites. Its like they use the religion as a shield to deceive everyone into automatically thinking they're a good person. "I'm a Christian so I'm better than you." I have no use for it. I'm fine the way I am & I don't need some book telling me how to live my life.

  • moglinferno Jul 23, 2007

    That may be, some find strength though. When I turned on religion my mom tried to explain faith to me. I personally cannot fathom some all powerful being that controls every single thing that goes on in this world, my daily activities, murder, war, science, education. My mom says that it makes people feel better to know (think, feel, whatever) that there's something bigger than themselves. I don't get it. I have to have faith in myself. At the end of the day, I make my decisions, I deal with the consequences, essentially I am my own god. I am the only thing I have in this world. I cannot bring myself to consider something else.

  • slaterric Jul 23, 2007

    Well said moglinferno.
    It always irks me when people say to just "forgive the sinners".
    It is almost like these people need religion to make them feel that
    they can never do wrong as they are "good christians" and
    will be forgiven by just going to church and praying after they "sin".
    The same folks then say "an eye for an eye" about the death penalty.
    Should we just let all criminals out of jail because they have repented ? I firmly believe that these so-called religious people are weak-minded people who have to pray to invisible an god to make themselves feel good about themselves

  • moglinferno Jul 23, 2007

    Okay, WRAL didn't like my post - guess freedom of speech against religion doesn't exist. So, I'll try this. He's not JUST a human being that is allowed to make mistakes b/c we all do. NO! He should be held on higher standards b/c he was on a pedastal. He was a leader, a preacher and that puts you above regular people. We hold Bush at higher standards b/c he's President, he's our leader. This guy was a leader too, except one for the Christian faith, which places itself on a pedastal. You just forgive him like he did nothing wrong? This stuff is the kind of thing that made me give up on religion a long time ago.

  • mindprobe Jul 23, 2007

    There are an awful lot of people throwing out the "cast the first stone" line, but I don't recall seeing any of you bringing up the whole "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" idea.

    I couldn't care less that the old geezer paid for some strange, but while he was doing it he needed to shut up. Someone said how great it was that he resigned immediately after being charged (and after being suspended) - maybe he should have resigned before he left the money on the dresser.

  • wufpak7483 Jul 23, 2007

    River, God doesn't "torch" anyone. The Lord gave us free will; will to choose. No amount of good deeds will earn you salvation. You are saved through grace only, not deeds. The only way to heaven is through Christ. I will continue to pray for you and ask all others that read this to pray also. The statement "I can't get into a father,..."seems to teeter on the brink of blasphemy. The word of our Father is clear, unchanging, loving, and above all, full of grace we could never deserve or earn. Satan's ability to twists man's thoughts to even contemplate God seeking man's approval, or "getting into", is amazing. Mankind tried in vain until Christ to earn God's approval through deeds and sacrifices. Christ's death (the ultimate sacrifice) and resurrection shows God's love for his children.

  • the river rat Jul 22, 2007

    http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

    So at least 67% of the world's population is doomed to an eternity in hell, as they do not believe as the christians do. Sorry, I can't get into a father that would torch 2/3rds of his children no matter what their earthly deeds were.

  • jetstream Jul 22, 2007

    Thank You Affirmation. You stated what I have been thinking.

    Bushy and his friends have caused more harm than Clinton ever did. Yet I can still forgive him. Just as I have forgiven and moved on where Clinton is concerned. The great thing about our nation is that a President is out in 4 to 8 years. Sure, harm can be done, as is the case with both Presidents. But there is always that fresh hope that someone new will finally do the right thing for the American people. I am a religious person, just not in the same way.

    I would never say that someone is wrong for not believing what I believe. I expect the same as our nation was founded to have freedom from religious persecution.

  • AffirmationOfLife Jul 22, 2007

    Hammertime that quotes is one of the best ones in the bible. Jesus said " Any Man That Is Free From Sin Throw The first Stone". Not one indivdual on this earth can throw a stone. We need to forgive and support and move on. Society needs to let up and know that man will sin unitl the day this earth is destroyed. I will agree that grace does not wipe away the punishment.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    The only time I get angry is when my wife blows up an engine because she runs it dry of oil. And she hasn't done that is over 20 years.

  • Timbo Jul 22, 2007

    Steve, you don't believe in abortion, but just retroactive abortion... ;^)

  • Hammerhead Jul 22, 2007

    Why would I disagree with all of what you said? I agree with some of what you said, and I don't subscribe to a lot of leftist policies. "Either your with me or against me" seems to be your MO. You seem pretty angry with your last post.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    Welcome crystie.

    Couple of points here. First, no one is truly innocent. Even recognizing the concept of original sin, that we are corrupted from birth because of the evils of the flesh, even babies sin. Just look at how even little ones react when they do not want to do something. Though seemingly inconsequential when compared to murder, there is rebellion that is inate within in us all. Indeed. a baby's first words are usually mama and dada, but that is closely followed by NO! Rebellion starts early.

    Second, you have to have a completely different concept of time and space when thinking about God and our relationship to Him. God exists apart from time and space. We live within those corporeal boundries of time and space. Our space, even the whole universe, is small compated to God and time is fleeting when put up against eternity.

    Those are two very difficult concepts to get your head around, I understand, but think about them. Once you understand, everything else falls in place.

  • Crystie Jul 22, 2007

    What a great blog. The amount of conviction and thoughtfulness in these posts are truly inspiring. Can I join in? I do believe in God but sometimes find it hard to believe in the Bible so literally. Homer wrote the Illiad and the Odyssey - how do we know the prophets who wrote the Bible didn't just invent a grand story for people in order to inspire them to "be good"? What about the young child who is killed by a drunk driver? The child obviously couldn't control his/her destiny - would God allow Satan to take this innocent child's life?

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    And hammerhead, I get the feeling you completely disagree with all of that -- and more. So yes, I think you are an apologist for the far left and their inane philosophies.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    I think abortion should be outlawed. I think the death penalty should be applied swiftly and publicly for those found guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt and for many more criminal activities than it now applies to. I think only violent people should be in prison; non-violent offenders should be punished via other means. I think old people are the treasures of our society and should be respected. I think young people are the future of our society and should be nurtured with an education that is classical, not the garbage that they are currently being taught. I think that universities have the sacred obligation to teach people how to think, not what to think. I think that we should get out of our houses more, quit being selfish, and get to know our neighbors, protecting each other from those who are evil and who would harm us. I think that the United States needs to set the example for the rest of the world on how to be successful and powerful while also protecting our national interests.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    Of course I am "utterly biased to the right". What tipped you off?

    I am a staunch far-right conservative. I am proud of that. I am a registered Republican only because there is no Staunch Far-Right Conservative party and Libertarians are insane.

    I am a strict Constitutional constructionalist and a state's rights believer. I think most government should disappear and all of its "charatable" activities be taken back over by religions organzations, private businesses and the sense of community we used to have in this country.

    I am a committed Christian who believes that Jesus is the only way to salvation. And whatever you want to believe is totally up to you, but I expect you to live your life by the high moral standards exhibited in Biblical teachings as a function of secular law, not a theocracy.

    I detest lazy people, ignorant people, postmodern relativists, secular humanists, and most liberals -- social or economic.

    I am for patriotism, honor, honesty, and respect when earned.

  • Hammerhead Jul 22, 2007

    So Crisp, you accused me of being a leftist apologist, yet could not cite any examples. I can see from your recent posts that you are utterly biased to the right. I, too, find plenty of Democrats to be hypocrites.
    W's got a lot of explaining to do himself, he's got a lot of blood on his hands. And a lot of his problems have to do with his alleged "morality".

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    See jetstream, that's inconsistant.

    You say we should never judge anyone, but the very political process of which you speak is nothing but judging someone else by their actions, words, and policies. And we judge in a courtroom every day. We judge the neighborhood we want to live in if we are moving. We judge our kid's schools and their teachers. We judge the people and management when we choose a grocery store.

    We judge all the time.

    If we didn't, we would all be scammed everyday.

    Judgement, whether corporate, political, or personal, is an absoutely necessity for existing in our society. And if someone does something wrong, we most certainly should judge them on it and enact penalties, most notably shame.

    But that is what is truly missing from modern life -- there is no more shame. That attribute is alone able to keep most people doing what is right. It is now gone and we are worse for it.

    And I would suggest that shame is gone because liberals and relativism killed it.

  • jetstream Jul 22, 2007

    I didn't say I found it in the bible, that is what I feel in my heart. I don't go around quoting scripture. I don't think we should be in the business of casting people to the side because they may not share the same belief I do. Or don't publicly come out and say I have sinned. That is that person's business along with their immediate family.

    When it comes to Clinton, he may have asked God for forgiveness. We don't know that. I like to have faith that he did. So I don't hold any ill will to him. I don't agree with what our current President is doing either. Can't stand it. But he is the one that is going to be judged by God. I have comfort in the fact that he only has a little more than a year left in office.

  • oldrebel Jul 22, 2007

    jetstream.......re "Last time I looked, we are all one people that deserve forgiveness".....Hmmmmm, where did you look to find that thought? Me thinks it was elsewhere than the Bible. The Word says many things, but I've yet to see a passage that says anything approaching that 'all deserve forgiveness'...but I am somewhat dense and that's why I ask, where in the Bible does it say that all deserve forgiveness.

  • wufpak7483 Jul 22, 2007

    Steve, thanks! We are on the same team, so to speak. I'm actually an ole fire and brimstone guy myself,lol. Grace through Christ does not change God's judgement, but I do fervently believe his judgement and for lack of a better word, justice, is, because of Christ, not administered until one's days on earth and their chances to come to Jesus are exhausted. Satan wreaks havoc in this world, God is not "mean" to his children.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    "Hate the sin, love the sinner."

    Another doctorinal difference. Paul clearly states that if a Christian sins, they are to be confronted. And if they refuse to quit sinning, they are to be cast out and shunned. Now if that isn't at least a form of "hating the sinner" I don't know that is.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    And here we have a classic difference between Christianity and religion.

    Both wufpak and I are Christians. We both profess the same belief in what salvation means and what a person has to profess to receive salvation by Grace. But wufpak is a New Testement, "loving God" Christian and I am, in addition to that aspect, also an Old Testement, "I'm gonna smite you very dead type of God", Christian.

    I'll argue with him all day long about that doctrinal difference we have, but I would never question his salvation.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    Let me clear up a misconception. There is Christianity and there is religion. They sometimes go hand-in-hand, but not always.

    This is Christianity:

    A belief that one is a sinner and as a result of that sin one can never achieve communion with the God who created him because God is perfect and can not abide sin. Only through the belief that Jesus Christ is God, sent to die on the cross and shed His blood like the innocent sacrificial lamb, literally covering and taking the sin away, and rising from death to prove His legitimacy, can one be saved from eternal damnation, receiving the glory that God wants to give his creation. And that salvation is an act of Grace on the part of God, not through anything we did or earned.

    Everything else is religion.

  • wufpak7483 Jul 22, 2007

    Steve, God is Love. God never changes. God allows us free will to choose (remember Eve). Christ came and gives us salvation through grace, not works. AND, Satan, not God wreaks havoc on earth through sin, i.e.,disease, murder, etc. God does no evil or tempts us to, SATAN does. God doesn't punish his children, he is there to pick them up when Satan misguides them. We should poo the people that say at a death or crisis, it is all part of God's plan,NO, Satan has gotten hold of someone's free will and wreaked havoc. Sin separated humans from God in Eden, and through Satan keeps them separated today until they call on the name of Jesus to save them.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    Clinton is not being forgiven because he has never asked for forgiveness; he's never even admitted wrongdoing. One of the key aspects of forgiving someone is that they admit they have done wrong. They don't even have to make reparations for what they did -- simply admit they were wrong. Clinton, and most other liberals for that matter, refuse to admit that they have ever done anything wrong. And with Clinton, it is not just the Lewinsky scandal and the purjured aftermath. It is selling out to the Chinese, renting the White House for political favors, illegal dealings all over the board, and a dozen other things that he is guilty of.

  • Steve Crisp Jul 22, 2007

    To riverrat:

    Hitler. Stalin. Lenin. Pol Pot. Mao. Dozens of others responsible for hundreds and hundreds of millions, perhaps a billion, deaths. All subscribers to secular humanism without a theological bone in their bodies. And I would suggest that those folks killed, maimed, and enslaved more people than ANY religious leader even though about doing.

    "everything happens as part of the all loving creator's plan"

    And the whole "loving" thing? Lose it. It only weakens your argument. God is a God of love, yes, but He is also a God of justice. So when you see all those Christian flower children preaching only love, you may properly poo them; they are missing fully half the message.

  • wufpak7483 Jul 21, 2007

    Jetstream, actually you hit the nail on the head. Any Christian that states Clinton shouldn't be forgiven is wrong. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Jesus told the woman to go and send no more. In God's eyes, both the minister and President Clinton, will both be forgiven if they truly repent. They still may have to pay a price for their actions legally, but that is far less a penalty than eternity in hell. Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, if the person is a follower of Christ, the question of either the minister's or Clinton's forgiveness is simple, if they repent to the Lord, they will be forgiven.

  • jetstream Jul 21, 2007

    That should have been "Pope". Forgot the P.

  • jetstream Jul 21, 2007

    Maybe this is the Liberal part in me but no one should criticise anyone, whether you read the bible or not. Which I do, but I would never say someone will burn for not reading it. I just wouldn't think that way.

    The Pope on the other hand? Just like our current administration, sometimes you get a good one, sometimes not. I love my faith but don't always agree with what he says. I guess that is why I don't understand how people obey their ministers so much. And this article shows that they do fail. But we forgive. As I do the ope when he says something I don't agree with.

  • jetstream Jul 21, 2007

    Thanks for your info Steve Crisp.

    Here is another question not directed at you but to all here. Feel free to answer though.

    The Evangelicals are posting here to certainly not to stick up for what this guy did, but to offer forgiveness. So why do these same individuals bash Clinton and other Democrats? And say hateful things about Democrats? I was too young to really understand the Clinton Presidency. However, why is he not forgiven for his infidelities? Yet when this reverend does it, it is OK because he will be forgiven. Last time I looked, we are all one people that deserve forgiveness.

  • the river rat Jul 21, 2007

    Steve Crisp: Best I can recall, I stated the bible was a storybook. Don't think there was a mention of throwing all the christians to the lion pits in my post. However, I was deemed born of "ignorance or bias" because my views apparently conflict with yours. IMO that statement displayed your ignorance or bias. I read this board daily and see you present a lot of intelligent and thoughtful posts. IMO this however was not one of them. I've seen too much injustice, torment, pain and suffering of textbook believers and young innocent victims, my family, to buy into the "everything happens as part of the all loving creator's plan" stuff any longer. I bear you no grudge for your beliefs and only ask the same in return.

  • joey2 Jul 21, 2007

    And you better pray good

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