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juliomercado Jun 4, 1:04 p.m.
There is absolute evidence teachers are being poached all across the state thanks to an unprecedented turnover rate last year. TODAY there are over 1500 teaching openings in the state. That number will increase during the early summer. Folks you can wiggle and squirm all you want, the fact remains teachers are leaving. I know of 5 that are leaving the profession entirely this year. The senate budget was nothing but an additional insult and the governor's recommendation a case of 'too little too late'. Fact is NC will end up spending hundreds of millions undoing the damage done and those of you blasting Houston and suggesting teachers aren't leaving in droves will only complicate the issue more. Stay tuned for 20% turnover THIS YEAR. That only affects about a million students statewide.
Pensive01 Jun 2, 4:28 p.m.
You do realize that for an interview to be taken, the reporter must first ask and the answer is not going to always be yes. Secondly the people who were interviewed were all outside of the hotel, in which the job fair was being held. You also seemed to not consider that the job fair, which was being held in a private business, might not have wanted a bunch of reporters attempting to interview everyone who showed up to attend. I should point out that it wasn't a public event, which I know because out of curiosity I went to the website for the Houston Independent School District and found that anyone who wanted to attend the job fair had to register beforehand. Either case could explain why more teachers were not interviewed.
westernwake1 Jun 2, 4:07 p.m.
So what there are a total of 24 "right-to-work" states including North Carolina. Basically right to work means that you cannot be forced to join a union. North Carolina goes one step beyond this - in our state public employees (e.g. teachers) can not belong to a union. in Texas teachers are allowed to voluntarily join a union, and over 99% of them do.
"Right-to-work" has nothing to do with K-12 tenure laws. Tenure (aka career status) simply means that a K-12 teacher is entitled to due process via a hearing before they are fired to ensure they were not fired for political reasons. North Carolina instituted this law over 40 years ago when it was found that teachers were being hired and fired due to political patronage, and being fired for teaching things like evolution in the classroom.
dawg59 Jun 2, 3:50 p.m.
Be very careful before leaving NC for Texas. I just came back from Austin/San Antonio where locals warned me about Mexican gangs. Check the crime stats before you go.
Pensive01 Jun 2, 3:46 p.m.
Just to reinforce your point here is an excerpt from the website for the Texas Attorney General, that addresses right to work under the laws of Texas.
Right-to-Work Laws in Texas
Texas is a right-to-work state. This means that under the Texas Labor Code, a person cannot be denied employment because of membership or non-membership in a labor union or other labor organization. Tex. Labor Code Ann. §§ 101.001, et al.
The site actually goes into quite a bit of detail, which anyone can read at the following link.
sandim50 Jun 2, 2:48 p.m.
iNTERESTING to note the difference in cost of living in Houston to Raleigh area. So are we talking APPLES & APPLES. Compare NY & NJ salaries to NC a blowout, but compare COL in those 2 states to us, crazy! My property tax for a much smaller home was $9k in NJ to $1150 here in a new larger home, larger land, auto ins 1/3, homeowners 1/4 and so on. How many got jobs at the fair?
carpe Jun 2, 2:42 p.m.
An NC teacher w/ their NBPTS Cert and 5 years experiance earns $34,500. A Houston teacher w/ 5 years earns $46,871.
The difference close to 27% higher pay in Houston, with a 32% higher cost of living.
Higher pay sure makes sense in Houston doesn't it?
glarg Jun 2, 2:36 p.m.
I hope you arent a teacher because I have to add up 2 plus 2 for you.
Its not a 'conspur'cy' as you strawmanificate.
If an editor send a reporter down to cover the story of "our teachers being poached by the hundreds by Houston" the fist thing the reporter does is start interviewing teachers. And yet there are no interviews with teachers! Did the reporter blow off the assignment and go get a frapaccino? Or out of the hundreds of people there they couldnt find an actual teacher to back up this story line?
The N&O managed to interview just one teacher, who was in his first year and from Durham. The main focus of this reporting assignment is the "hundreds of teachers" being poached, and yet despite two reports working a crowd of 350 people they can dig up a single Wake teacher at this event.
There is ZERO evidence that experienced NC teachers are being poached at this event.
Smilester Jun 2, 2:30 p.m.
Its the 4th largest city in America?
Smilester Jun 2, 2:29 p.m.
Houston is also the 4th largest city in the USA. That could explain the high number.
jackaroe123 Jun 2, 1:48 p.m.
It must be a conspur'cy! The turrists are gonna win!
What are you theorizing? No teachers were really there? A second job fair on the grassy knoll? Come on...
crkeehn Jun 2, 1:47 p.m.
What you are missing is that you can't be dismissed without cause. You have the right to challenge an unwarranted dismissal and you also have the right to file for unemployment. Teachers would have neither under the State's new policy.
glarg Jun 2, 1:25 p.m.
Lets put aside the fact that there isnt any recrimination for teachers. Journalists commonly anonymize sources "One middle school math teachers with 10 year experience said..."
What stands out about this story is that there is NO evidence that any Wake teachers at all were there. Why is that? The reporter got sent to cover the story and never interviewed ANY actually teachers who could back up the story line about being willing o pullup stakes and move out of state for an extra $10K.
These hundreds of "teachers" could really be unemployed professionals attending a job fair, and new graduates like Luke Arno.
And why doesnt Logan Smith get identified as a political operative?
There seem to be a lot of journalistic standards being violated in this story.
westernwake1 Jun 2, 1:13 p.m.
Actually the mid-year turnover percentage in Houston is less than Raleigh. It was up by 28% last year for a total of 234 last year, with similar 2014 figures. The summer turnover is less than the Wake County school system.
Many other media resources interviewed a few teachers. Most teachers did not want to be interviewed until they have a job secured outside of N.C.
As a note, the reason that every classroom has a teacher is because many are 'temporary' substitutes who have been put in place when teachers have left. These substitutes are doing their best but usually are not qualified or licensed to teach the particular subject areas.
Houston is not the only out-of-state school system recruiting North Carolina teachers. Every nearby state is doing the same thing - with $10K or more salary increases.
rcherry132004 Jun 2, 12:35 p.m.
Here is a need for teacher "tenure" that no one has mentioned. Without tenure schools can fire teachers who get several years of experience so they can hire cheaper teachers to work at their schools, thereby saving money. Before you poo poo this idea, when I lived in FL that was exactly what they were doing. Why pay full price when you get workers for cheaper. Also as an FYI, the state is going to save money on the teachers who don't take their raise - never have to pay them a raise - and with the constant hiring of new teachers, they will always be able to pay the lowest amount possible. It's a win-win for them.
westernwake1 Jun 2, 12:31 p.m.
This is completely incorrect. You can easily google and see that teachers in Texas have tenure., and Florida is the only state to eliminate K-12 tenure. Nearly half the states in the U.S. (including North Carolina) are "right to work" and Florida is the only state without K-12 tenure for teachers. "right to work" has nothing to do with tenure. The Houston school district also has a teacher's union which provides better job protection than North Carolina.
I expect the reason WRAL eliminated the earlier video was because they got their talking points from a Republican party spokesperson and many of those talking points about Houston landed up to be totally incorrect.
stymieindurham Jun 2, 12:31 p.m.
Wonder what their local cost of living is compared to that salary.
stymieindurham Jun 2, 12:26 p.m.
Investing in education brings up real estate values close to good schools.
Hmmmmm, I prefer NOT to have a school near my neighborhood.
common tater Jun 2, 12:26 p.m.
Houston turnover is 2000/year... seems worse than here. If the cost of living is around the same percentage higher as the pay increase, they would just be moving because they like more hot weather. Thanks Glarg for clarifying who was interviewed...very interesting. I keep hearing about teachers "leaving in droves" but somehow every classroom has a teacher. Yes, they deserve a raise. But this story is misleading in my opinion. Houston couldn't get/keep enough teachers for whatever reason, so they raised salaries and are recruiting across the country...simple supply and demand.
stymieindurham Jun 2, 12:23 p.m.
Rule of thumb in any industry, service occupation, anything--you get what you pay for. If the people of North Carolina want educational miracles, they will have to pay for it.
I beg to differ. This may be YOUR rule of thumb, but I bet those in law enforcement have a different opinion being called, ". . . you get what you pay for"!!!
Mods Hate Me Jun 2, 12:20 p.m.
If it's so much better in Houston, why do they need so many teachers?
jackaroe123 Jun 2, 11:55 a.m.
Most people I know don't let their current boss know they're leaving until they have another job offer. Being interviewed at a job fair might make it difficult to keep that secret.
josephlawrence43 Jun 2, 11:55 a.m.
Rule of thumb in any industry, service occupation, anything--you get what you pay for. If the people of North Carolina want educational miracles, they will have to pay for it. Pay low or mediocre salaries and you'll attract low or mediocre teachers. Simple logic.
tracmister Jun 2, 11:50 a.m.
It's amazing that people can't read the writing on the wall. I know several young teachers who went and for the most part have given up on North Carolina. I know several older ones with master's degrees who are looking in other professions. Guess which ones are staying? That rights, the very ones that the NCGOP is trying to get rid of.
glarg Jun 2, 11:44 a.m.
Its amazing that we are told that Hundreds of teachers were at the job fair to be "poached" yet the reporter cant come up with an interview with a single one.
Luke Arno isnt a teacher yet. He is just a recent graduate looking for a job.
Christine Kushner is BoE member.
Marilyn Rodriguez and Logan Smith are aggitators who attended the photo op outside the job fair. Neither appear to be Wake County teacher. In fact Logan Smith is a former press flak for mayor Nancy MacFarlane who now works for lefty ProgressNow PAC.
How come there are no interviews from actual teachers? That was the point of this story.
issymayake Jun 2, 11:37 a.m.
I thought that was strange. Raleigh is one of the most expensive cities in the south.
ravenrll Jun 2, 11:37 a.m.
I think you are right treat every teacher the same as other state employees. Pay them around 25 an hour (this is base off of what other state employees make with the same education) this would be around $6250.00 a year. This is based on 55 hr. a week in which most teachers work more then this. And its for 10 Months. This does not include the time and pay to pay the coaches, after school tutoring, etc.....
juliomercado Jun 2, 11:36 a.m.
What I find quite amusing is how so many folks commenting here are ignoring and avoiding the headline and its ramifications. Teachers are already leaving the state in droves and this budget/extortion scheme the senate has passed is only going to make it worse. Soon there will come a day when our state must pay the piper for our vindictive General Assembly and finally accept that North Carolina is "The anti education state".
anti-Hans Jun 2, 11:25 a.m.
Just watched the video story, and that is different than the one I watched last night.
The one I saw last night stated the right to work issues I mentioned in a previous comment as well as the fact these spots are in high crime, low performing schools.
anti-Hans Jun 2, 11:19 a.m.
WesternWake, when I saw this story on TV last night, they said it is clearly a right to work state and issue. Therefore there is no tenure, and they stated this in the story.
jackaroe123 Jun 2, 11:15 a.m.
What do other professions have to do w/ it, and why would any justification of tenure for teachers depend on that?
Tenure doesn't mean teachers can't be fired. It means they have due process rights if someone tries to fire them. The reason it exists is to protect teachers from political and personal agendas, which were issues. That other professions don't have protections against that isn't a reason teachers shouldn't. No one should be subject to political and personal whims, and if they are, that's a wrong that should be corrected, not a reason for others to be subjected to the same unfairness.
ENCteacher78 Jun 2, 11:11 a.m.
I have a brother in law who is a geology professor in Georgia who is being observed for tenure because he brings millions of dollars in to the university in research grants. Its called an investment. The GOP refuse to understand that it takes money to make money. Investing in education brings up real estate values close to good schools. People want to move to places where their kids will receive a good education. Waiting around for the millionaires and billionaires in North Carolina to decide if they have enough profit to spend on the people here is NOT good business. Our state is a nationwide joke.
changein2016please! Jun 2, 11:03 a.m.
If school districts offer more money as starting pay, usually there is a reason. There are extenuating circumstances that require a higher salary. The environment may be very challenging, housing prices and cost of living higher, and higher crime rates. Teachers need to determine if losing money to pay realtors to sell their home, moving expenses, and trading off a quality of life is worth it. I think teachers need a raise, but we are just coming out of a recession. I think it is good that some steps are being taken towards a positive trend in the recent budget.
newssaavy72 Jun 2, 10:44 a.m.
If they did not want teachers to have tenure, why in the world did they put it in place at all. I would not give up my tenure for a measly raise that you may well never see again! What goes around comes around. People can't keep working their fingers to the bone for nothing. So disrespectful and a slap in teacher's faces.
68_dodge_polara Jun 2, 10:29 a.m.
Hope they know what there getting in to as Houston has a very high crime rate when means dangerous schools.
Pensive01 Jun 2, 10:16 a.m.
You apparently have a misunderstanding on just what right to work laws are for. The legal definition of right to work laws, courteously of legal.com, is "Right-to-work laws are state laws that prohibit both the closed and union shop. A right to work law secures the right of employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join or financially support a union". That basically means that a person cannot be denied employment because they didn't want to join a union. Note that the definition does not address whether a person may or may not be granted tenure or whether or not they have job security while working for an employer.
heard-it-all-before Jun 2, 10:10 a.m.
ah yes, what goes around comes around. see what happens when you pay next to nothing for good work? they leave and go to Houston, become Superintendent and start hiring all their old pals in NC because they sympathize with the ripoff our teachers are getting. free market economics 101, i love it.
-Va- Jun 2, 9:56 a.m.
I don't like the idea of eliminating tenure without first having a statewide implementation of due process rights and responsibilities specifically enacted for teachers firmly in place. This way, the whole UNC Argentina thing (which really is an anomaly) or some other other major dereliction of duty could be addressed instantly. But for gray area things--teachers would get due process. That way, you are able to eliminate unproductive teachers without putting the career objectives of capable and productive teachers within a cloud of uncertainty and undue risk.
iopsyc Jun 2, 9:54 a.m.
You're missing the point that without due process, teachers could be fired despite doing their jobs well.
krimson Jun 2, 9:30 a.m.
"Tenure" for college professors is different than "tenure" for public school teachers. Please do not confuse the two.
JAT Jun 2, 9:28 a.m.
why do teachers think they deserve tenure when no one else does? if you aren't doing your job, you deserve to get fired. Why is that such a foreign concept to teachers? What am I missing?
jackaroe123 Jun 2, 9:27 a.m.
You cite one very extreme example. There is a historical reason the teaching profession has tenure, and contrary to popular belief, it does not mean a teacher cannot be fired.
jackaroe123 Jun 2, 9:22 a.m.
It sounds very much like you are blaming teachers. When did "not in it for the money" become so literal as to mean "money never matters at all"? How is that a fair standard to hold teachers to? Do you expect worse medical care from higher paid doctors b/c they might be in it for the money?
Additionally, the teachers who are most likely to accept these job offers are young teachers w/ few ties to the area.
fjsmss2099 Jun 2, 9:12 a.m.
Teachers and judges are the only profession with tenure. District of Columbia teachers union several years ago turned down a huge raise because eliminating tenure was a stipulation. All one has to do is look at the UNC professor who was convicted two years ago in Argentina for drug smuggling. You and I would have been fired the next day as we should. He had the audacity of saying he could do his job from a jail cell in Argentina and asked for a raise. It took over two years to fire him.
westernwake1 Jun 2, 8:55 a.m.
This may be a good time to mention that the teachers in Houston are represented by a union - the Houston Federation of Teachers. The teachers in Houston have far stronger tenure and job security than teachers in North Carolina.
iopsyc Jun 2, 8:51 a.m.
Am not sure if you’re intentionally being obtuse, but I’ll bite. It’s one thing for a school district to recruit for a position that does not include due process protections. It’s an entirely different thing for the general assembly to change the terms of employment for people already teaching in this state; people who were recruited with, and chose to accept positions, based on a particular compensation and benefits package.
westernwake1 Jun 2, 8:48 a.m.
It is interesting to note that all of the cost of living comparison websites which use government figures show the cost of living in Raleigh is 14% or more than living in Houston.
The WRAL article references the only website on the web - which is based on sparse user entered information - to claim that the cost of living in Houston is higher than Raleigh. Which simply isn't so.
One of many proper comparison examples:
jackaroe123 Jun 2, 8:45 a.m.
I can't attest to the accuracy of what you're saying about that district, and considering the misinformation out there about what tenure actually is, I'm more uncertain, but if you're right, my first guess is that it has to do w/ what teachers signed up for on day 1. Teachers don't expect to get rich, but the deal most of us signed included regular, modest raises, incentive to further our education, and tenure. Some of us may have been willing to teach w/o some of those things, but taking them away after the fact is breaking the deal. For many of us, that is a sign of disrespect and dishonesty.
westernwake1 Jun 2, 8:42 a.m.
Florida is the only state to eliminate teacher tenure protection. The teachers in Houston have tenure protection under Texas state law.
For K-12 teachers in most states, tenure (aka "career status") simply means that you are entitled to a hearing before you are terminated to ensure that you were not fired for political purposes (for example - teaching evolution in a biology class). It does not protect teachers from being fired for poor performance.
darkhorse94 Jun 2, 8:35 a.m.
Houston also has 3x the crime rate of Raleigh. The crime index in Houston is 5% (Safer than 5% of the cities in the US) Raleigh is 16.
Published: 2008-01-11 14:37:00
Updated: 2010-06-21 13:53:03