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uBnice Jan 17, 2:12 p.m.
UNC's faculty reported there are two cultures on campus, academic and athletic. There can be only one!
The head football coach at UNC is payed nearly 3 times more than the Chancellor. Even though the Chancellor has over 30 years in academia and is boss over 26,000+ students and over 3200 faculty, a guy who oversees maybe 100 young men and a few staff is payed 3 times more than the Chancellor. A meeting between the two is not a meeting between equals...with the Coach probably thinking "How dare her!".
Assistant coaches are payed more than endowed professors.
There are two cultures in D1 athletic schools and only the Chancellor/Presidents can really change it. But we know that will not happen. Just witness Thorp asking to hand the responsibility of managing athletics to someone else.
uBnice Jan 17, 1:49 p.m.
The only thing the Chancellor has to do is to call in the Head of Admissions and give the directive that no unqualified athlete will be admitted.
But then UNC would not get talent like Julius Peppers who should never have been admitted into UNC. However, plenty of other schools, UNC direct competitors, would have admitted Peppers.
Admissions hands unqualified athletes to the faculty, the faculty do not ask for them.
The Chancellor could end that today. Where is the leadership? The integrity? The ethics? The cohones!!!
Six String Jan 17, 1:33 p.m.
In my previous comment, I meant "standing along without explanation". Thanks to NMBLACKM for illustrating and making my point.
nmblackm Jan 17, 1:12 p.m.
Both parties (Willingham & the "official" stmts from UNC) can be statistically right... It depends on what question you are trying to answer from the statistics. Willingham correctly pointed out that the current TOP athletes in F'ball & MEN's Basketball include many low (3rd grade or below) readers. Although she is right, the UNC Admin. waters down the stats by adding the entire women's Basketball team (not generally the top income source, so don't ignore academics there) and only using the past 2 years recruiting (AFTER the F'ball scandal broke, & more care was applied in recruiting). When Dr. Foyt says 97% of student athletes from 2004-recent, she includes tens of thousands of UNC Students who also play athletics (male & female swimming, soccer, tennis, volleyball, lacrosse, etc...), the great majority of which get NO exception to UNC's stringent academic requirements. Willingham wants to right a wrong to UNC's top "scholar"-athletes... UNC wants to clear it's name.
jmcdow2792 Jan 17, 1:02 p.m.
Are we talking apples and oranges here? Willingham was looking at only football and basketball. The data being quoted to refute her claims appears to be for the entire student athlete population.
Six String Jan 17, 12:48 p.m.
What kind of data does UNC have that disputes Willingham's research? Double blind study or similar, or grades and graduation rates. The comment, standing alone with explanation, means nothing. More PR and denial.
Obamacare prevails again Jan 17, 12:35 p.m.
Clearly UNC-CH doesn't care about its student athletes if they are taking this stance. Makes you wonder if they value anyone on that campus over the almighty dollar.
DoingMyBest Jan 17, 12:29 p.m.
"Brilliant idea. Which school is going to step up to bat first and start doing this?" ALANON
It is a mute point if it is a rule. Then everyone would by default step up.
huxter72 Jan 17, 12:22 p.m.
I don't know when anybody is going to get it. These athletes, not just at UNC, can't even put together a complete sentence half the time, so don't tell me you don't have exceptions all over the place that can't read and write. Ms. Folt, Roy Williams, Larry Fedora, don't give a rat's behind whether a baller can exceed academically just as long as they can dunk, run, and tackle, that's all they need to know, along with the money they can bring in. Nobody cares.
MaxD Jan 17, 12:22 p.m.
cheaters never win
borealbob1952 Jan 17, 12:16 p.m.
Looks like UNC killed the messenger! Suspending MW's research ability? The lawyers are running the university- ain't gonna work. Another bad call.
1jalapeno Jan 17, 12:07 p.m.
I wonder why UNC administrators haven't looked at and analyzed Willingham's data and then commented on her findings relating to that data? It seems like UNC wants to play games instead of dealing with Willingham's claims in a straightforward manner. Is crooked becoming UNC's path?
Alex25 Jan 17, 12:05 p.m.
What is a UNCCH degree worth - ?? It's a girls school anyway ...
alanon Jan 17, 12:02 p.m.
The data goes back to 2002. They have different athletes there now. This wouldn't give us any indication of how truthful the reports were.
AConservativePerson Jan 17, 11:55 a.m.
Let somebody other than UNC administer reading and writing tests. Then we can see how much truth is in the reports.
alanon Jan 17, 11:50 a.m.
Brilliant idea. Which school is going to step up to bat first and start doing this?
Fastglass Jan 17, 11:44 a.m.
I'm having a pretty hard time believing anything this university has to say at this point. I'm not saying I believe her 100%, but UNC has lost a significant amount of credibility lately. Its completely plausible to say that UNC is trying to save face here and deny, deny, deny.
skeeter II Jan 17, 11:40 a.m.
Why not go back to the old rule that the Freshmen could not play their first year on the varsity squad. That was so they could get used to college and devote their time to their course work. This seems to be a better system than an incoming Freshman get to play in the games as a "first stringer" immediately.
Also require EVERYONE to meet the admitting standards without exception! Also go back to requiring a athlete coming from out of state to pay the out of state tuition fee and not classify them as in state just because they are athletes!
Also limit the salary and other income of the those leading the athletic programs. The total packages being received is huge when compared to the salaries of the university professors.
ccsmith1902 Jan 17, 11:36 a.m.
Instead of talking about it, why don't Folt and Roy Williams let Willingham give them an example of what she is talking about!
alanon Jan 17, 11:34 a.m.
They get passing grades because they are put into programs and courses that have professors who historically give "good" grades for little effort. Professors are under a lot of pressure to publish, so teaching takes a back seat. They do what they can to be efficient about teaching so that they have time to research. Dealing with students takes time; time they don't have. That's a whole different issue.
NCSU84 Jan 17, 11:30 a.m.
The reason ABC fans are all over this, is UNC touted themselves as doing things the Carolina Way. Implying they are above the rest in doing things right. Well guess what, UNC no better than the rest of them...
josephlawrence43 Jan 17, 11:30 a.m.
Well now--an accredited researcher states that UNC academics--at least in football and men's basketball--leave something to be desired. Its bad enough that COLLEGE students have to take REMEDIAL classes, but to learn that the athletes in those two sports are reading on an elementary level. My first question is if their reading level was so bad, HOW did they get into college to begin with?? But, they are there. My second question is--what is the administrations response? To suspend the researchers privileges apparently so she can't research and document any further embarrassing discoveries. Not a whisper that I've heard about fixing the problem--only to silence the researcher. A truly adult response.
Obamacare prevails again Jan 17, 11:28 a.m.
Bless her heart. She looks so happy in this pic.
Riddickfield Jan 17, 11:13 a.m.
'there' problem? (Ahem.)
The problem here is that not only do they accept athletes that can't read, but they get passing grades in college courses. How do they pass an SAT test? How do they get passing grades? UNC cheats the system, that's how.
alanon Jan 17, 11:08 a.m.
I want to read the article that says an athlete found their name. Does anyone have that link?
mrschizzy Jan 17, 11:07 a.m.
Let's face the real problem...public education. No doubt most (if not all) of these struggling athletes probably went to public schools. If the issue is as Willingham describes then these kids should never have made it through high school. If UNC did indeed just "push them through", then our public elementary, middle, and high schools have done the same thing and that's where it all begins!
A person Jan 17, 11:07 a.m.
Yeah, believe what a liberal from Chapel-Hill says. That is about as smart as believing Barack about anything
billggibsonii Jan 17, 11:01 a.m.
"Atlanta's prestigious Emory University admitted Friday (2012) it had intentionally misreported student data to rankings magazines for more than a decade,..."
Yes, it shouldn't happen, but it does, but this was for college ranking & not athletics.
NC_interest Jan 17, 11:00 a.m.
UNC has nothing to gain by her being right. It just basically asserts the facts we already know about the rocks for jocks classes and other "Easy A's" through tutoring .. .Why would the athletic department and other departments have set up these classes, if they thought their "Qualified" athletes could actually pass we wouldn't have the trove of stories at UNC we already have on Athletes.
UNC is covering themselves, but I think there is a lot of truth to Willingham's research.
I think what would be more interesting though would be to see the breakout by sport and by socio economic status.
common_sense_plz Jan 17, 10:59 a.m.
As far as I am concened UNC or another University or College is not responsible for a student not being able to read. It is there problem for accepting student who could not read, however not being able to read is the fault of their previous schools (elem, middle & HS) and their parents. Should any college ever accept ANYONE who cant read or write...NO. and no school should be promoting students who cannot read...NO. If these athletes cant read beyond a elem. school level how in the world did they take and pass their EOG's and EOC's as well as SAT and ACT.
computer trainer Jan 17, 10:47 a.m.
If anyone could read them, they might, or MIGHT NOT! The basketball team passed the data around and one person found their name on the paper.
alanon Jan 17, 10:42 a.m.
It would not behoove the office of admissions to lie about student qualifications (test scores, gpa) and such. That would call the entire institution's credibility into question, even moreso than it already is. That would be a poor, poor choice if that were the case.
stymieindurham Jan 17, 10:32 a.m.
. . . . the university has suspended her research privileges.
Uh-oh!!!! You done messed up now by . . . . . . . telling the truth??
Steven Jan 17, 10:13 a.m.
Keep digging the hole deeper UNC. Suspending her access just makes you look that much more guilty. Funny that WRAL isn't allowing comments on that article.
alanon Jan 17, 10:12 a.m.
I disagree on the outcome part of your statement. First, this research was conducted 2002-2012. Many of these students are gone. Second, obviously there is a need for additional academic support. There's no need to kick the athletes that are already there out...
US VET Jan 17, 10:10 a.m.
Sometimes the truth really hurts.
glarg Jan 17, 10:06 a.m.
This press release is based on analysis by "The Office of Undergraduate Admissions"- those are the same people who admitted these sub-standard students in the first place! And the admissions office has no qualifications to be conducting studies of any sort.
On the other hand, Mary Willingham is in the field for years and has worked with trying to remediate their lack of skills. Are we supposed to believe that the people who are doing the tutoring can tell that the kids can barely read?
ospreysilver Jan 17, 9:56 a.m.
This academic advisor Mary Willingham must have ulterior motives for publishing this research. She says that she is a student advocate and morally obligated to respond to this long ignored student need, but let’s say for argument sake that her findings are true, logically the only outcome for the student would be expulsion because they can’t pass the curriculum.
archmaker Jan 17, 9:25 a.m.
so let's get this straight - earlier WRAL reported that Roy Williams got all puffed up about what she said about his "student" athletes and basically told her to "prove it."
she said she couldn't reveal their identities, and now the university has suspended her research privileges that allows her to use the data that has these identities???
so she's the anti-edward-snowden for not releasing the data and they still come down on her. come on! we've got athletes thinking their graduating from Karolina!
alanon Jan 17, 9:20 a.m.
Also, if you google Willingham, you will see that she did her thesis on a similar topic. I don't think she is "out to get" anyone. Typically scholars have an area of interest/research and this just happens to be hers.
It is likely she worked on this research under the direction of one of her Master's degree professors, who would (if they are worth their salt) check for things like releasing identifiable information. One of the basic tenets of research is protecting participant identity, so I'd be surprised if that's an issue here.
alanon Jan 17, 9:16 a.m.
And no she shouldn't lose her job (assuming her data is correct and that she followed the proper data handling protocol). That is a terrible precedent to set. No one will feel comfortable blowing the whistle in an organization if they think they will get fired for doing so. I doubt she would want to stay at UNC anyway after all this.
alanon Jan 17, 9:15 a.m.
In order to conduct this research Willingham had to go through an approval process (which is at every university). The approval process is done by a board that doesn't typically include higher ups like the Chancellor. Whether or not they appove an application for research has to do with making sure proper protocol for data collection/handling are followed. Last that I knew the IRB can't reject research being conducted because of the possible outcome damaging the university.
alanon Jan 17, 8:57 a.m.
UNC approved giving this data to Willingham. What they should do is give the data to a third party and have it analyzed. Also the third party should make sure that the data that Willingham received is the same data that UNC is providing to be analyzed. That would solve this pretty quickly.
Honesty first Jan 17, 8:54 a.m.
She has not lost her job. She can't conduct research until they determine if she has released possible identifying information. Don't let the facts get in the way of your posts. Ever heard of FERPA
AFSC426X3 Jan 17, 8:47 a.m.
Sure the Universities are going to dispute this research.
keymania Jan 17, 8:39 a.m.
Not just UNC, but most universities. I worked with a few Grad students writing their dissertation, and the grammar, syntax and punctuation was grade school level. These students are writing to get their PhD and can't spell - the whole country. (PennState students working at NCSU)
mafiamic Jan 17, 8:17 a.m.
Of course,this was expected to happen when the story came out.People like hiding from the truth and live their lives lieing to themselves and others.
In this case it is UNC like a couple years ago it was Penn State with Sandusky
They want to save face with their biggest commodity and the Football and Basketball programs are the biggest commodity they have.
ConservativeVoter Jan 16, 7:13 p.m.
" BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah Jan 16, 7:00 p.m.
I am sick and tired of Bashing UNC....This is a witch hunt. and the data has been misinterpreted for the purpose of demeaning this excellent University...UNC will rise above this.....A bunch of junk science...and I refuse to listen to another negative word about this Outstanding University..."
Problem is that this was a self inflicted wound committed by the University.
Nobody is trying demean the University. They are just quoting facts.
The African Studies class scandal is just the tip of the Ice Berg.
Colleges forget they are in the business of educating students.
Colleges forget that sports are an extracurricular activity and education is the reason that students are supposed to be in college.
College sports has become a big business and the universities are only concerned about how much they make off of sports.
ConservativeVoter Jan 16, 7:04 p.m.
When I was in college back in the 1980's, I noticed a classic example of cheating on the part of athletes.
It was a Chemistry lecture in a large lecture hall. Your seat the first day of the semester was your assigned seat. When they passed out test booklets, there was three versions. A, B and C. Through the entire lecture hall they passed out the books in A, B, and C order. Sitting in front of my were two individuals that usually made the Deans List and sitting between them was "Bubba" who was on the defensive line. Some took the time to figure out where they were sitting and make sure that those three all got an A booklet. Sad thing was that "Bubba" made it obvious that he was copying off of the two people he was sitting beside him.
The NCAA should quit the charade and just admit that College Football is a minor league for the NFL and pay the players.
BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah Jan 16, 7:00 p.m.
I am sick and tired of Bashing UNC....This is a witch hunt. and the data has been misinterpreted for the purpose of demeaning this excellent University...UNC will rise above this.....A bunch of junk science...and I refuse to listen to another negative word about this Outstanding University...
Published: 2008-01-11 14:37:00
Updated: 2010-06-21 13:53:03