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Terkel Jan 30, 11:32 a.m.
"Our country says we guarantee Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not anything else." Raleigh Rocks I
Slight quibble: the Constitution acknowledges that we all have the RIGHT to L,L + PoH. It does not guarantee them. It does not agree to provide them to anyone.
The Constitution provides the framework for a republic where we are free to achieve as we wish, within legal limits. It does not say that some private citizens shall support others.
"Providing for General Welfare" doesn't mean ka-ching for babymamas and illegals, it means acting in a way that furthers the republic. For example, PASSING A BUDGET so businesses can resume their attempts to thrive in spite of the Dictator.
As someone so rightly stated yesterday, taxes are levied to keep govt operating, NOT as some kind of "social justice" corrector or redistribution scheme.
Terkel Jan 30, 11:20 a.m.
0bama proposes legislation, Rucho "touts" it. Nice.
jackjones2nc Jan 30, 11:12 a.m.
Raleigh Rocks 1 - Although your positions typically lack substance and viability, they are entertaining and fairly appropriate considering the level posting here. You might just give ole' Glen Beck a run for his money! Good luck!
ykm Jan 29, 5:48 p.m.
luna All of the items you listed: I am taking those profits home with me or investing in training, new equipment, marketing, etc. All involve people. All increase demand. Put those two together and ya got jobs. So reducing taxes and allowing you to do more of whatever it is you do is meat on the table for others. Have at it.
lunarmodule Jan 29, 3:50 p.m.
Thanks for the economics 101 lesson, RR. No really. I guess I could have stopped at Econ 101 and never made it to my degree in Economics. But trust me, like a true capitalist, if lower taxes increase my bottom line, I am taking those profits home with me or investing in training, new equipment, marketing, etc. In fact, I will look for the best return on that extra money and it may or may not be extra people. I'm not going to hire people to sit around just because I've got extra money in the bank. The point is that there are a lot of variables that influence whether I hire people. Taxes aren't even in the top five.
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 29, 1:02 p.m.
jack, Like the current tax rate does not hurt the middle class, and when Obamacradletogravecare kicks in...man the middle class will get it then.
Not sure how letting me keep all my money will hurt, but Im not a lib, libs want to take my money. Conservatives want you to keep it. If I make 50K, let me take home 50K and not 40K.
Moonman said, You can cut my taxes to the bone...that won't make me hire more people if I can't meet OR GENERATE (Caps by RR) demand for our services...
I remind you I said..When the taxes are low, AND the economy has stability. Cant take half of my quote to make a point.
But, Lower taxes will increase your bottom line, which puts you in a position to hire, so you CAN GENERATE more demand. Higher taxes will lower your bottom line, may make you lay off, or not hire all together which makes it more difficult to create the demand. Econ 101
Oh, and No there was not a demand for another Mexican restaurant in north Raleigh.
mep Jan 29, 12:29 p.m.
Texas has NO State income tax.... only sales tax... and is projected to take in more than it will spend ($5.5 BILLION worth)... so Gov Perry is suggesting the State send refund checks to all its citizens. So who says we NEED a State income tax to generate enough revenue? And a flat sales tax is the only true fair tax there is. Fair being everyone pays the same. If the purpose of taxation is to fund govt operation, and the govt is to treat each and every citizen as equals.... then a flat sales tax is the only way to do it.
Plenty Coups Jan 29, 12:13 p.m.
just a name-"The line for out-of-state teachers coming into NC is long. Most are coming from union states where they can't find jobs."
Please tell that to my local elementary school where they've had a substitute teacher in the special needs room for the last few months.
Plenty Coups Jan 29, 12:11 p.m.
raleigh rocks-"plenty...thats just bull man."
Actually, it not. I can and will prove it. Teachers who make more than 50 thousand will have to have a lot of years in the profession or will have to have an advanced degree above a bachelors. Wake County also adds to the the low pay with a 12% supplement. Most counties in NC don't supplement nearly that amount if at all. Here is the 2012/2013 teacher pay grade. It takes 32 years for a teacher with a bachelors degree to hit 50 thousand per year. What the salary schedule doesn't show is that NC teachers are still working on 2008 pay grades, so that a 5th year teacher, instead of making 31,220 is actually only making the starting amount, 30,800. Then there's also the decreased health care but I won't get into that beyond mentioning the $300 +30% ER co-pays.
Check it out for yourself.(page 2)
jackjones2nc Jan 29, 11:51 a.m.
Radical Republican policies like increasing regressive sales taxes to offset progressive income taxes will harm North Carolina's economy very quickly. Incrasing financial burden on the middle-class indisputably reduces spending, and our richest simply don't "spend" enough to drived the whole economy. I'll waive any points on morality as most Republicans wouldn't understand.
lessismore Jan 29, 11:46 a.m.
I hope every NC citizen starts paying "their fair share" of taxes.
lunarmodule Jan 29, 11:42 a.m.
Raleigh Rocks, apparently there was pent-up demand for that restaurant. The owner made the assumption, took that gamble and was rewarded by people who had money to spend. And while taxes play a role in every business strategy, they are not the driving force behind opening a business or hiring employees. Those decisions are based on the assumption that future and sometimes current demand will justify them. I speak as a small business owner for more than 25 years. You can cut my taxes to the bone...that won't make me hire more people if I can't meet or generate demand for our services.
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 29, 11:15 a.m.
Beachie said..Where does demand come from, primarily from the middle class, not the folks with money.You can have all the money in the world but if you do not need to hire anyone, your not going to.
When the taxes are low, and the economy has stability, those who have money want to MAKE MORE, so they will invest in business and begin to hire. If they feel their investment is not a good one IE I spend a dollar and Obama takes half of it, then they do not invest, and no jobs are created, no cash is spent, and Gov. does not get that 7% on the dollar since it was not spent.
New restaurant opened recently near me. No one I know was saying...we need a new restaurant around here(Demand was not there) but owner invested his money and opened it up. Now, its common to have hour waits for a table. The demand was created after he opened up, gave the consumer a quality product and service for a fair price.
Create an environment that encourages folks to start a business, which creates taxes
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 29, 11:00 a.m.
plenty...thats just bull man.
At the previously mentioned small high school, there are 40(Forty) teachers that are making over 50K a year....FORTY. Many of the these 40 teachers make far more than 50K. For of them Earn 63979.00 THOSE ARE THE INDISPUTABLE FACTS. According to your incorrect information, they all have over 32 years in WCPSS. So if all these 40 teachers were hired at age 22, they would be a minimum age of 54 years old. There are not 40 teachers over the age of 54 at this school. I love me some facts!
And I submit that WCPSS does not need as many positions as it has allotted for some areas.
beachmama Jan 29, 10:44 a.m.
Last comment for me, What creates jobs is demand for goods and services, not money. Companies give their money to their shareholders and their executives who often hold the companies shares. Companies will hire in a minute if demand for their goods or services creates the need. Where does demand come from, primarily from the middle class, not the folks with money. You can have all the money in the world but if you do not need to hire anyone, your not going to
And for my life, I am pretty darn happy with it. Life is too short to be otherwise
JustAName Jan 29, 10:42 a.m.
"Maybe that's why 1 in 8 teachers left the profession last year despite a relatively high unemployment rate in NC." - Plenty Coups
The line for out-of-state teachers coming into NC is long. Most are coming from union states where they can't find jobs.
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 29, 10:37 a.m.
Lets make it easier for the working poor, get Obama out of our lives so folks with money can create jobs.
Yep, life aint a bowl of cherries Beachie. Its tough out there. Our country says we guarantee Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not anything else.
beachmama Jan 29, 10:24 a.m.
I am sorry Raleigh Rocks I you are entitled to your opinion. I too have worked my but off, put myself through college, ate .27 boxes of mac and cheese when I was really really poor. But now, I am doing pretty well. Still work 2 jobs but hey that is just me. The elderely don't have alot of working choices you know. I know it is difficult for some to think about others, like those on fixed incomes, that are barely getting by now, really need to pay more for their groceries and medicine. What about the working poor that are working two jobs to try and make it, let's make it harder for them. How is that going to help anybody to just put people on the brink over it and on welfare? Oh I know they would could work 3 jobs and their kids can just run around unsupervised while they try to keep a roof over their head.
Plenty Coups Jan 29, 10:22 a.m.
Raleigh rock-"No room to Cut?"
What exactly does your post prove? That schools don't need custodians, counselors, or secretaries? Even the "small ones" around 2000 students? It takes a NC teacher 32 years to even hit 50K in pay. Most college careers now start ABOVe that.
lessismore Jan 29, 10:14 a.m.
Maybe a sales tax, taxing consumption, will cut down on those on welfare wasting taxes given to them. Lottery tickets, cigarettes, drugs, alcohol........when food becomes more important than these evil things their lives might impove and they might decide to go back to school, get an education, and a better job...or a job.
goldenosprey Jan 29, 10:11 a.m.
Raleigh rock, those salaries are hardly excessive. In fact, they are pretty low compared with the rest of the country. You complain teachers aren't any good but you don't want to pay them anything. Why would a good teacher want to work here?
You say spending more on education does not necessarily translate into good results. But cheaping out guarantees you poor results.
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 29, 10:09 a.m.
Beach mama..least position to pay it..Why? I busted my tail to make good grades, get an education, and get a job. There are folks black and white, who decided not to bust their tail, and played through high school and collage, called me names, yet now you say I should pay for their mistakes....Almost wants to make me not work and let others pay for me. AND ALAS, there is the reason why socialism will not work. Takes incentive away to be successful. You say they would pay more, I say they will start paying some, instead of none. The sales tax will capture all the drug money and under the table money that is rampant in our society now. Folks are making lots of untaxed income from drugs, tips,being paid cash to work ect. My point..if in America we are all supposed to be equal like the libs think, then why should we not all pay the same equal tax %???
I went to same schools with 2 African American friends of mine, K-collage. Opportunities for all have been available for over 40 years.
for the people Jan 29, 9:53 a.m.
my wife is a teacher in wake county. she wouldn't leave teaching because of the pay, i'm sure of that. she loves to teach. she would leave because of the environment in the schools that is created by the extreme lack of parenting we have in the community and how that effects the classroom.
conservatives don't hate public education, not as far as i can tell. what they don't like about public education, is the lack of responsiblity on the parents part that leads to extreme distraction in the classroom, and the irresponsibility of the community on free lunch programs etc. why throw money at a public system that those that could/should benefit from, abuse?
the same could be said of many public assistance programs btw. why continue supporting millions of the community if they spend it unwisely?
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 29, 9:47 a.m.
PlentyCommie says.....Per pupil spending in NC is far less than most other states so obviously its not true.
Additional funding does not always mean better education, so obviously that comment is not true.
One small high school in Wake with less than 2k students...
$52,040.88 Academy Coordinator
$51,470.65 Career Development Coordinator
$24,490.32 Clerical Assistant
$17,877.10 Clerical Assistant
$18,517.50 Clerical Assistant
$19,978.00 Clerical Assistant
$17,877.10 Clerical Assistant $57,965.20 Coordinator $78,090.00 Counselors $58,964.60 Counselors $53,829.48 Counselors $41,160.70 Counselors $44,709.75 Counselors $23,318.88 Custodian $29,155.80 Custodian $24,744.84 Custodian - Head $36,613.73 Intervention Coordinator $27,016.80 Registrar $51,999.55 SAP Coordinator $25,041.24 School Secretary - High School $54,335.25 Special Populations Coordinator $57,915.75 Teacher - Special Programs 43,000.00 10 Voc teachers
No room to Cut?
beachmama Jan 29, 8:50 a.m.
Raleigh Rocks 1
You are missing my point all together. All I was doing was throwing out an example to show why the sales tax is a regressive tax and hurts those that are in the least position to pay it especially on basic needs like food and medicine. I am fully aware, depending on how much the sales tax rate and base is as compared to the income tax, that some people may actually have more after tax money, primarily those that have more funds than is required to meet their basic bills. Those that live day to day and week to week, that have a low income tax rate may actually be paying more under the new system depending again on the rate and the base
Plenty Coups Jan 29, 8:11 a.m.
"I don't quite get the point fo some posters that it's not fair to tax income, it's only fair to tax spending. Can they explain some hidden philosophical or moral argument for one form of tax over the other"
Their side proposed it so then they're for it. They convince themselves that its better that the poor and middle class should pay more as a percentage of income so that the long suffering rich can get another tax break. A reverse Robin Hood scenario.
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 28, 9:07 p.m.
Beach Mama...800 a month? 9,600 a year..really? What everyone forgets is you would bring home most of your gross pay..your money.
Raleigh Rocks 1 Jan 28, 9:02 p.m.
miseem, its not your money
miseem Jan 28, 7:33 p.m.
I don't quite get the point fo some posters that it's not fair to tax income, it's only fair to tax spending. Can they explain some hidden philosophical or moral argument for one form of tax over the other, except that they would save more money using one rather than the other? It's widely accepted that someone making a higher income spends less as a portion of their income on expenses. The family making $200,000 may be buying steak and pay more tax on that steak than the family making $40,000, who may be lucky to buy hamburger. But at the end of the year, the wealthier family should still have a lot of income left over and these proposals would eliminate all state taxes on that. The lower income family would have virtually all of their income taxed when sales taxes are expanded. In addition, all of these articles report increasing the STATE sales tax to 8%, and including services. Counties also charge a 2% sales tax. Instead of figuring all of this at 8%, try 10%. On everything.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 5:29 p.m.
"Or you could move to one of those states instead of scolding us because teachers earn more there"
But I'm not a teacher and I make good money, much more than my wife who is a darn good teacher and who does want to leave the profession. In fact, 15 of the 40 teachers at her school left last year. Two thirds of them have a second job. You should be scolded if you choose to ignore the facts. The replacements aren't as good of quality. YOU should care about this as Mississippi isn't something that we want to emulate.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 5:26 p.m.
wildpig-"nah thats not true-- 4 yrs under queen perdue no raise what so ever-- you wana rethink that?"
It is true. They admit it themselves. I'm no fan of Perdue's as she did freeze the pay initially, but she then DID propose raising state teacher pay the last 2 years when the economy improved and republicans voted her down both times.
"fact is teachers and state employees have tolerated a hostile gov ment in raliegh for 40 yrs and i'd urge every state employee an teacher to go on strike and cripple this state until parity is reached."
I agree with that.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 5:23 p.m.
Bunch of liars and hypocrites-the republican party. Oh they ran on proclaiming "we need to end tenure-to get rid of the bad teachers" but "we'll pay the good teachers more". Turns out its a baldfaced lie. They dropped the EOG test score bonuses for teachers and have no proposed plan to replace it. So either they didn't mean what they said or they were lying. They still want to end tenure-its a priority you see-but no talk of the other part. They're hypocrites because they spend big money on their priorities such as state workers who work for Pat McCrory or Thom Tillis as well as voter IDs, as well as tax cuts in a already overall below average taxed state.
Terkel Jan 28, 5:10 p.m.
Or you could move to one of those states instead of scolding us because teachers earn more there.
wildpig777 Jan 28, 5:10 p.m.
Republicans hate public education. Couldn't be more obvious. "Now is not the time to put money in education" really means we don't -- plenty
nah thats not true-- 4 yrs under queen perdue no raise what so ever-- you wana rethink that? fact is teachers and state employees have tolerated a hostile gov ment in raliegh for 40 yrs and i'd urge every state employee an teacher to go on strike and cripple this state until parity is reached.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 5:01 p.m.
Republicans hate public education. Couldn't be more obvious. "Now is not the time to put money in education" really means we don't ever want to pay for it and "We support paying only the good teachers more" means we don't want to pay for any good public school teachers as they've been saying that for decades and don't ever try to do it. Then there's the last argument, "We're broke". They already admitted this year that they are doing fine financially but they plan to cut taxes(again), in a already overall below average taxed state instead of paying the state workers who have had their pay frozen the last 5 years.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 4:57 p.m.
"There is plenty of waste in the system with excessive personnel in non teaching positions that if managed properly ..."
Been hearing this my entire life. Per pupil spending in NC is far less than most other states so obviouslyits not true. For it to be true, we would have to have high education spending AND teacher pay.
" could provide additional money for teachers without more revenue. But nobody has the ability or guts to make it happen."
I guess 5 years of cuts to education get ignored when it comes time to argue the point?
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 4:51 p.m.
doingmybest-"and who determines "What they are worth"?
Hmmm. Perhaps teacher salaries in other states which average at least 10,000-15,000 more per year. Or perhaps we could look at other professions that require the same education level and see that teacher pay is 20-70,000 less.
WolfPackAlum Jan 28, 4:20 p.m.
>>"Right to work" does not prohibit unions. it simply allows workers to choose not to join a union rather than being forced to join if you want the job."
Not exactly. "Right to work" laws use Government regulations to directly prohibit groups of private citizens from forming legal agreements with private companies requiring membership in that group as a condition of employment. In states without "right to work" laws, private companies have the freedom to choose whether or not to sign a legal contract with a union. In "right to work" states, those types of contracts are illegal.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 4:16 p.m.
"A choice they both made that they either live with or do something about, other than continuing to parrot the same old same old."
Aaah, teachers should just accept it that their contracts were broken 5 years ago, right? I doubt any of them would be complaining that they picked the job, just give them what was promised when they started the profession. Don't break your word just because you belong to a political party that doesn't like public education.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 4:14 p.m.
doingmybest-"and who determines "What they are worth"? why do you have to spend more per student to pay teachers more?"
What teachers get paid here lags far behind other states and far behind other college graduates. Maybe that's why 1 in 8 teachers left the profession last year despite a relatively high unemployment rate in NC.
DoingMyBest Jan 28, 3:53 p.m.
"The better question is, why are you OK with not paying them what they're worth? How do you justify this in your mind? Please explain." PC
and who determines "What they are worth"? why do you have to spend more per student to pay teachers more? There is plenty of waste in the system with excessive personnel in non teaching positions that if managed properly could provide additional money for teachers without more revenue. But nobody has the ability or guts to make it happen.
DoingMyBest Jan 28, 3:43 p.m.
"Because he's married to a public school teacher."
A choice they both made that they either live with or do something about, other than continuing to parrot the same old same old.
lunarmodule Jan 28, 3:38 p.m.
Raising the sales tax will definitely impact consumption, which is, after all, the driver of our economy. If middle class and poor people have to pay a greater percentage of their income for food, they will necessarily have to buy less food as well as other commodities. This hurts businesses everywhere. Why do you think Art Pope is issuing cautions about raising the sales tax? It would directly impact the amount of money people could spend in his stores. Fewer sales, fewer jobs. This type of approach hurts our economy as much as it hurts the poor and middle class.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 3:33 p.m.
Morrigan-"Because he's married to a public school teacher."
The better question is, why are you OK with not paying them what they're worth? How do you justify this in your mind? Please explain.
Plenty Coups Jan 28, 3:30 p.m.
"Right to work" does not prohibit unions. it simply allows workers to choose not to join a union rather than being forced to join if you want the job."
In the case of state workers, they are specifically prohibited from going on strike or collectively bargaining. I don't want to be forced to join a union but I also don't want to be prohibited from collectively bargaining. It's simply a mechanism in this day and age to take advantage of workers. Maybe that's why our teachers are paid near the worst in the nation and why many are leaving the profession.
fled91 Jan 28, 2:05 p.m.
"Right to work" does not prohibit unions. it simply allows workers to choose not to join a union rather than being forced to join if you want the job.
goldenosprey Jan 28, 1:58 p.m.
Another thing to consider. The rich have more wherewithal and tend to make more large purchases. Their large purchases, such as appliances, tend to be more expensive than po' folks' purchases. It is thus easier and more cost effective for them to go to a neighboring state to make large purchases. This is a great opportunity to avoid taxes for some.
The rich didn't get that way by paying a lot of taxes.
Who makes up the slack? Why the rest of us, of course.
fled91 Jan 28, 1:57 p.m.
A flat tax could work and it could be made fair so the poor are not disproportionately burdened. Simply exempt groceries and medicine. that is what you need to survive and should not be taxed. everything else is fair game. Many states use this model on sales tax. You want to buy $35 sneakers ay walmart you will pay less than If you want the $500 sneakers.
Terkel Jan 28, 1:55 p.m.
"You have in my mind, criminals that fraud the system, but do you take it away from law abiding citizens that need a little help and support?" beachmama
Yes. Right now it's a huge jobs program which means it's an empire for someone at state and federal levels. They have no incentive to weed out the criminals. Tell them to reduce the rolls instead of giving bonuses for signing up quotas of people into food stamps (Oregon) or they're out of a job in six months. They'll find the criminals. Or the street snitches will.
Terkel Jan 28, 1:48 p.m.
" But it does imply that those with less money will buy hamburger at the grocery store, while those that have more money will buy steak." beachmama
Do you have a problem with that? I don't. And I can't afford hamburger OR steak.
Published: 2008-01-11 14:37:00
Updated: 2010-06-21 13:53:03