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  • gunny462 Jan 19, 4:55 p.m.

    If the harnett county does not have zoning laws in effect for ranges, is it the range owners fault?

  • gunny462 Jan 19, 4:54 p.m.

    "The shooting range…falls under the umbrella of "agritourism," which means it's exempt from county zoning laws.”

    I have looked up the ag ncda and it specially states planning zoning, health, environment impacts

    "the “NRA Range Sourcebook” “MIL HDBK 1027-3B Range Facilities and Miscellaneous Training Facilities Other Than Buildings”. This is the reference publication used by all branches of the military"

    I too am quite aware of both as well as OSHA. But still nowhere in this article does it state that he is not in compliance with state or local requirements of which there are quite a few. Each county must have it's own ordinance governing the range(s). To include noise DBd levels at property line not to exceed *** lvls, minimum liability insurance, permit to establish and run a range, site plans to include noise reduction, firing lines, firing stations, existing roads, streets AND proposed structures within 1/4 mile of facility and buffer zones that's just to name a fe

  • Obviousman Jan 19, 3:43 p.m.

    And where's the link? I didn't see anywhere in this article where the owner was "unregulated" Just the cost of reading lies from another anti-gun 'person'…gunny462

    Gunny, your handle indicates that you’re a marine…thank you for your service!
    With all due respect, please re-read the article. “The shooting range…falls under the umbrella of "agritourism," which means it's exempt from county zoning laws.” There is no oversight. The range has not had to meet any of the permitting requirements for operating a safe shooting range in the county. As mentioned previously, the “NRA Range Sourcebook” provides a wealth of information regarding planning, constructing and operating a shooting range. There’s also “MIL HDBK 1027-3B Range Facilities and Miscellaneous Training Facilities Other Than Buildings”. This is the reference publication used by all branches of the military.

    For the record, I am not anti-gun. I own a variety of handguns and long guns and cherish my r

  • Obviousman Jan 19, 3:19 p.m.

    In rethinking this, with simple trig, I would consider it almost totally worthless if firing from a position level with the target. Only about 2 degrees of elevation would clear the top if you consider a flat trajectory (which I would for a safety measure). But we do need to take into account the elevation of the shooters. Perhaps they are shooting from an elevated position, which means they are firing downward to begin with. Anyone know for sure?...Lightfoot3

    Elevation at firing line = 329ft. Elevation at location of house = 269ft. Highest elevation between firing line & house = 312ft.

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 19, 10:50 a.m.

    Well, I just looked at the rifle range images from the Drake Landing website. The one at the bottom that says "Check out the view" tells the story. A shot could EASILY leave that range. The berm is not sufficient and the topography beyond it is level. This doesn't prove the shots that hit the house came from the range, but I personally wouldn't run a rifle range designed like this.

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 19, 10:30 a.m.

    "Why not require safety training before shooting on a public range?" - EZeegoing


    I don't have a problem with that. If I owned a range, it would be mandatory.


    "A 20ft berm on a 200 yard rifle range is practically worthless for containing errant rounds." - Obviousman


    In rethinking this, with simple trig, I would consider it almost totally worthless if firing from a position level with the target. Only about 2 degrees of elevation would clear the top if you consider a flat trajectory (which I would for a safety measure). But we do need to take into account the elevation of the shooters. Perhaps they are shooting from an elevated position, which means they are firing downward to begin with. Anyone know for sure?

  • EZeegoing Jan 19, 9:58 a.m.

    Let's apply logic here. You need a special lic to drive a auto, motorcycle, bus or commerical vehicle. You need a lic to be a doctor, electrician, plumber, dentist and just about anything involving the public. Why not require safety training before shooting on a public range?

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 19, 9:51 a.m.

    "it only takes the barrel to be elevated around 30 degrees" - Obviousman


    If somemone is shooting at 30 degrees, that's a person problem, not a range problem.


    What's the typography like beyond the 20ft berm? I would agree that a 20ft berm at 200yds sounds kind of inadequate. If the land beyond it keeps rising, and is heavy wooded, I would have less concerns, but if this is on the level, or worse, a gradual down slope, it would sound like they need to rethink the rifle range design.

  • gunny462 Jan 19, 9:31 a.m.

    And while we at it. The longest sniper shot recorded is at 2707 yards or 8121 feet. Considering the comment about 5300feet, whoever was shooting from the range at the house/car/barn is an impressive shooter. Considering the berm is there and the shooter can't see OVER IT and must use best guess at: initial elevation, windage (on the otherside of the berm), obstructions (pathway) and elevation of the target, etc. Reminds me of the saying "Couldn't hit the broadside of a barn"

  • gunny462 Jan 19, 9:24 a.m.

    "I suppose it's a perfectly acceptable risk that someone may be injured or killed by a stray round from a heavily used, unregulated shooting range. Just the cost of doing business I suppose.Obviousman"

    And where's the link? I didn't see anywhere in this article where the owner was "unregulated" Just the cost of reading lies from another anti-gun 'person'

  • gunny462 Jan 19, 8:59 a.m.

    "The individuals home that has been struck at least twice is located about 5300 feet from the firing line at the rifle range"

    Uhhh 5300ft is 1760 yards the 308 would have hit the dirt by then unless fired into the air. SO basically the projectile could have come from anywhere in your scenario.

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 19, 8:43 a.m.

    "bullet size is a major factor in how far the projectile is capable of going." - gunny462


    I was speaking in relative terms. Compared to initial velocity and trajectory, it is minor. Of course if you want real accuracy for the final impact site, it's a big factor. We might not need that in this case. They should do the simple math first to see if it's even a possiblity. If so, then we can bring in the other factors.


    "I don't know if the Fed Gov has records of rifle rounds as they do handguns. If these were rifled rounds and they do keep records, why haven't these been solved as in case 1?" - gunny462


    We have PLENTY of data on all the rounds used in rifles to do the calculations we need. I too wonder why this hasn't been solved yet. Is it because no one with the county police has the skills or initiative, is it Andrew's political power, or a combination?

  • Obviousman Jan 19, 8:42 a.m.

    There was a farmer near New Bern that complained about a range several years ago. Said that were shooting up his barns. Carpenter Bees...tsquaring

    I reckon them's some "Terminator" carpenter bees that gnawed through the shingles, sheeting and sheetrock of the house that got hit.

  • Obviousman Jan 19, 8:37 a.m.

    Hard to control? I've been hunting 20 plus years and never had an "aw' shucks" moment with a bullet firing up into the sky, to land who knows where. I expect you have a better chance of being eaten by alien monsters than that "aw' shucks" bullet striking you....rm24

    Next time you're at an indoor range, check the ceiling, floor, sidewalls and the backstop behind the target line. Chances are you'll find ample evidence of errant rounds. I suppose it's a perfectly acceptable risk that someone may be injured or killed by a stray round from a heavily used, unregulated shooting range. Just the cost of doing business I suppose.

  • Obviousman Jan 19, 8:31 a.m.

    You need to check some of your "facts" obliviousman
    I spotted multiple errors in your .308 rising 5 feet analogy. Just because you preempt your statement with the word Fact doesn't make it correct...yourmadscientist

    I'm sure the Sierra Bullets folks would be interested to learn that their Infinity v6 Exterior Ballistics Software is in error. Nifty little program for those who custom load. It has all of the commercially available manufacturers cartridges preloaded with all of the required information. One just has to plug in the weather variables and distances.
    Oh, and maybe the NRA folks would be interested to learn that their Range Sourcebook is incorrect as well. "the 30-06 (boattail) bullet, weight of 172 grains, muzzle velocity of 2600 feet per second has been added to the chart and is shown to have a range of 5,500 yards or 3.12 miles." This information can be found on page I-1-9. The chart lists other calibers and can be found on page I-1-10.
    No brag....just FACT!

  • EZeegoing Jan 19, 8:06 a.m.

    RM24
    "No matter how experienced a shooter is it only takes one odd ball round fired in the air to leave the range property and land on neighbors property. This is something hard to control. EZeegoing

    Hard to control? I've been hunting 20 plus years and never had an "aw' shucks" moment with a bullet firing up into the sky, to land who knows where. I expect you have a better chance of being eaten by alien monsters than that "aw' shucks" bullet striking you."

    No doubt you must be an experienced shooter, good for you for understanding where the bullet goes when it leaves the muzzle. What about the inexperienced shooter that blasts away with no regard to where the bullet goes? That is why the Wake County run firing range requires an extensive safety training course before a shooter is allowed to fire the first shot.

  • alwaysCool Jan 18, 7:59 p.m.

    people buy these houses and they do not check the area. So, they expect the old timers to conform to their expectations. That is what the Grandfather clauses are for. They were they first. Dont expet farmer john to change for you.

  • tsquaring Jan 18, 7:50 p.m.

    There was a farmer near New Bern that complained about a range several years ago. Said that were shooting up his barns. Carpenter Bees.

  • bowslinger70 Jan 18, 7:31 p.m.

    Hmmm, I live near Drakes Landing and I don't have any Bullet holes in my house.But I do have Busted ear drums from the Car Boomboxes that go down my road and They are much louder than the gunfire. You folks that just shiver when a gun is mentioned, need to get a life that doesn't disrespect other folks enjoyment.

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 18, 7:20 p.m.

    “Could you keep up with ballistic coefficient, humidity, mean elevation, windage, powder burn rates and yawying?” – yourmadscientist


    Nope. Getting too close to rocket science. :) Well, I might could if I wanted to, but that’s not my thing. But I still dabble in basic physics.


    I do wish someone would do the basic caliber math and map the place to see if it’s even a possibility it came from one of the ranges.

  • rebelyell57 Jan 18, 7:01 p.m.

    Dan Andrews should just close the shooting range and sell the land to the county (at a very high price) for a school. You know, just like he did for the new Boone Trail Elementary School.

  • Baseball dude Jan 18, 7:00 p.m.

    Well I do know some of those fellers that do run the place. Wonder what all in the area are going to do when they shut the place down. Rumor I have heard a few times, ya'll go ahead and shut him down.. His plans are if the county does, he is going to retire to the beach and then put about 50 hog houses on the place. Deal with the shooting or deal with the smells.. :) Go on and stop a man from doing what he wants to do on his land in the country. He doesn't live in a subdivision. Certainly, every business can use some extra safety precautions, why not discuss those, versus all just want him shut down.

  • RM24 Jan 18, 6:55 p.m.

    Tell that to the people from the story that have bullet holes in their houses and cars.....
    WooHoo2You

    I expect those homeowners can show you where those bullets were fired from. I expect they even know the caliber, and where they are located today. I'd check there closets, prob can find them there.

  • WooHoo2You Jan 18, 6:21 p.m.

    Drakes Landing rifle range I think is only 200 yards. Since most bullets drop is directly proportional to velocity, they're pretty much hitting the ground after several hundred yards.-yourmadscientist

    Tell that to the people from the story that have bullet holes in their houses and cars.....

  • yourmadscientist Jan 18, 6:17 p.m.

    You need to check some of your "facts" obliviousman

    I spotted multiple errors in your .308 rising 5 feet analogy. Just because you preempt your statement with the word Fact doesn't make it correct.

  • RM24 Jan 18, 6:16 p.m.

    No matter how experienced a shooter is it only takes one odd ball round fired in the air to leave the range property and land on neighbors property. This is something hard to control.
    EZeegoing

    Hard to control? I've been hunting 20 plus years and never had an "aw' shucks" moment with a bullet firing up into the sky, to land who knows where. I expect you have a better chance of being eaten by alien monsters than that "aw' shucks" bullet striking you.

  • brmyspots Jan 18, 5:29 p.m.

    After checking the place out and looking at it on aerials, it's hard to imagine bullets every leaving the farm.

  • yourmadscientist Jan 18, 5:15 p.m.

    lightfoot3. We should play with ballistics sometime. Could you keep up with ballistic coefficient, humidity, mean elevation, windage, powder burn rates and yawying? I love my job and it's the easiest thing in the world to get paid for. I do some 1,000+ meter shooting (not at Drakes Landing) and have an app for calculations that I designed. My zero is 500. Love my job.

    Drakes Landing rifle range I think is only 200 yards. Since most bullets drop is directly proportional to velocity, they're pretty much hitting the ground after several hundred yards.

  • Obviousman Jan 18, 5:13 p.m.

    Fact: The shooting ranges at Drake Landing lack a great deal in complying with NRA Range Sourcebook guidelines which is the "Bible" when it comes to site selection, design, construction and operation of a safe, reputable shooting range.

  • Obviousman Jan 18, 5:08 p.m.

    Fact: The individuals home that has been struck at least twice is located about 5300 feet from the firing line at the rifle range.
    Fact: The house is in a directly in line with the firing line to target line of the rifle range and well within the surface danger zone created by the types of weapons used at Drake Landing.
    Look up "surface danger zone" and see what it is as it pertains to small arms such as rifles and handguns.

  • Obviousman Jan 18, 5:05 p.m.

    Fact: Practically ALL of the homeowners and residents of the area surrounding Drake Landing were there YEARS before Drake Landing was even a gleam in the eye of the operator.
    Fact: A 20ft berm on a 200 yard rifle range is practically worthless for containing errant rounds. A typical .308 round from a rifle sighted at 200 yards will rise approximately five feet for every one degree of elevation of the rifle barrel. This means that it only takes a four degree rise in the rifle barrel to launch a round over the top of the berm.
    Fact: A typical .308 round has a maximum range of over three miles and it only takes the barrel to be elevated around 30 degrees in order to achieve the maximum range.

  • I Carry even in Cary Jan 18, 4:55 p.m.

    After all this is said and done with,more then likely will give Drake landing a good boost with lots more business from all the free advertising and lack of good ranges.
    wmhs

    Yep I am going to go check it out this weekend...and I will be taking only high cal.

  • EZeegoing Jan 18, 4:52 p.m.

    No matter the skill level of the shooter, height of berm or direction of bullet travel, all it takes is one "Awe shucks" round fired in the air, in the wrong direction and the bullet is out of control. No matter how experienced a shooter is it only takes one odd ball round fired in the air to leave the range property and land on neighbors property. This is something hard to control.

  • gunny462 Jan 18, 4:50 p.m.

    "All you need is angle, initial velocity, and the house location to make a pretty good case for or against whether it could be hit by normal range fire. While bullet size and wind do matter, it's pretty minor compared to the rest. Lightfoot3"

    Light, I have to disagree with that second comment. bullet size is a major factor in how far the projectile is capable of going. The design of the bullet is also a major factor ihmo. SOme studies have shown that a boattail will go further than a flathead while others have shown that the flat far exceeds the boat. There's also the rifle compared to handgun round.

    As I only own handguns and a 12G I don't know if the Fed Gov has records of rifle rounds as they do handguns. If these were rifled rounds and they do keep records, why haven't these been solved as in case 1?

  • WooHoo2You Jan 18, 4:41 p.m.

    They'll establish ownership of a stray bullet when it hits someone and the police are required to sort it out.-hardycitrus

    How are they going to "sort out" the wounded or dead person?

  • RM24 Jan 18, 4:09 p.m.

    How about y'all go do that for a year or two and lets find out :)
    haggis basher

    If only I thought the ignorant would stay away. Problem is yall would come running scared someone had found something you were entitled to. Or at least to make sure all involved were as misreable as yall.

  • TeenDAD Jan 18, 3:50 p.m.

    "The rights of some to play with guns does not supersede the rights of the rest of us to be safe in out own homes." --haggis basher Play? Yeah, this is one woman that loves to rub her guns and play with those little shiny things called bullets. Pssst... Stay inside and keep your head down.
    Warrior lover
    January 18, 2012 3:22 p.m.

    Lol what? No part of this makes sense. Im guessing its some kind of sexual metaphor.

  • u stand corrected Jan 18, 3:22 p.m.

    "The rights of some to play with guns does not supersede the rights of the rest of us to be safe in out own homes." --haggis basher
    Play? Yeah, this is one woman that loves to rub her guns and play with those little shiny things called bullets. Pssst... Stay inside and keep your head down.

  • wmhs Jan 18, 3:21 p.m.

    After all this is said and done with,more then likely will give Drake landing a good boost with lots more business from all the free advertising and lack of good ranges.

  • MagnumLoads Jan 18, 3:19 p.m.

    The Old North State she is a changing. We have to balance our 2nd Ammendment Rights with the responsibility of how we use that right. Berms and Impact Zones are the way to do this. Of course, being a better shot could also help.

  • hardycitrus Jan 18, 3:14 p.m.

    They'll establish ownership of a stray bullet when it hits someone and the police are required to sort it out.

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 18, 2:47 p.m.

    "what a colorful world you live it...." - haggis basher


    It's the same world you live in, and it's human nature. How many times have "hate crimes" been investigated only to find that the "victim" did it to themselves? (like spray painting racial slurs, etc.)


    "I would worry more about Joe Blow out in his backyard 3 acres shooting a .22 rifle into a tree to kill a squirrel than a possible bullet coming from an established range..." - grimreaper


    Bingo!


    If the police or whatever can't figure this out, tell me the calibers of the bullets recovered and give me a map of the range/house and I'll tell you whether or not it's possible for the range to be the source.

  • confederateyankee Jan 18, 2:47 p.m.

    "In 2010, the range sparked controversy when it planned a three-day semi-automatic weapons course over Memorial Day weekend. Organizers wound up moving that event to another location, in part because of public outcry."

    I bet they would have had an absolute FIT over the machine gun shoot I attended the same day in TN, which happened to be in the virtual side yard of the landowner's home.

  • confederateyankee Jan 18, 2:38 p.m.

    "If a stray bullet lands into your home, then sue the range owner. You have the right to be safe in your own home."

    If the can prove that the bullet was fired from a specific gun used on the range that day, and that the bullet left the range as a direct result of an inadequate range design, I say they should have at it.

    If, however, they have a bullet hit their home and can't prove it came from the range at all, much less prove it was from range design negligence, then I don't see where the homeowner has grounds to sue the range, even though he might have grounds to sue the shooter if he was acting in an unsafe manner.

    Unlike most commenting here, I've shot at this rifle range, and it seems to meet the same basic design specs as other ranges.

  • grimreaper Jan 18, 2:03 p.m.

    "The rights of some to play with guns does not supersede the rights of the rest of us to be safe in out own homes." --haggis basher

    Sorry, but you have EXACTLY the same fundamental rights as everyone else...no more, no less...they are outlined in the Constitution...

  • grimreaper Jan 18, 2:00 p.m.

    "Yes, something certainly needs to be done in the safety of the people who live around this range." --wildcat

    Do something...you of course mean not letting people build near the range in the first place right?...I shoot out in Mebane...Durham Pistol and Rifle Club (they moved there years ago to be out in the boonies)...subdivisions are popping up around the range now...this is no different than building around an airport and then only afterwards complaining about the noise, traffic, etc...

    In general bullets do not leave the range...targets are too low to the ground and the berms are high...would really take almost an intentional act for a bullet to leave the range under deadly power...I would worry more about Joe Blow out in his backyard 3 acres shooting a .22 rifle into a tree to kill a squirrel than a possible bullet coming from an established range...

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 18, 1:55 p.m.

    "i would prefer the Sherrif enforce the HOA rules in my subdivision." - fuquay transplant


    That's a job for the, uh, HOA .... not the police. That said, it would be nicer if people would just follow the rules.

  • Lightfoot3 Jan 18, 1:53 p.m.

    "If a stray bullet lands into your home, then sue the range owner. You have the right to be safe in your own home." - wildcat


    Even if the bullet didn't come from the range?

  • haggis basher Jan 18, 1:51 p.m.

    "only 1 bullet hit the house... If it was my house, it's one too many"

    double so when it could have been you or a member or your family. The rights of some to play with guns does not supersede the rights of the rest of us to be safe in out own homes.

  • haggis basher Jan 18, 1:49 p.m.

    "2Behonest I'm not discounting your theory. It's just highly improbable and I wouldn't put it past some people to shoot into their own homes to prove a point. I've seen it before and sadly will probably see it again."

    Really? what a colorful world you live it....

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