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Higher taxes on food, services could replace NC income tax

Published: 2013-01-17 16:49:00
Updated: 2013-01-17 18:35:15

Republican legislative leaders are crafting a package of changes to North Carolina's tax code that they say will stimulate economic growth, including slapping a 6 percent sales tax on groceries.

Lawmakers phased out the state sales tax on food in the late 1990s, saying that scrapping the 4 percent tax would give low-income families a needed break. Counties continue to collect a 2 percent food tax.

The GOP, which now controls the General Assembly, is pushing to lower the individual and corporate income tax and use a higher state sales tax applied to more things to make up for the lost income tax revenue. Food should be taxed, they say, because grocery spending is dependable.

Senate President Pro Tem Phil Berger said Wednesday that the state's current tax model dates to the 1930s and doesn't really fit to North Carolina's changing economy. So, tax reform is critical to the state's future.

"It's important for us in terms of our competitive posture with other states," he said. "It's important for us in terms of making sure we have a fair allocation of the cost of government across the spectrum of economic activity."

Details of the tax reform package are likely to be rolled out later this month, but the prospect of a higher sales tax on food already leaves many shoppers with a bad taste in their mouths.

"Food is high enough now. Everything is taxed – taxes here, taxes there," Phyllis Branch said Thursday. "We've got to eat, so they kind of got us in a bind."

Raising the sales tax on food from 2 percent to 8 percent would add $312 to the annual grocery bill for someone who spends $100 a week on food at the supermarket.

"It's not a progressive tax, where those at the higher end pay more and those at the lower end pay less," said Bill Rowe, general counsel and director of advocacy for the left-leaning North Carolina Budget and Tax Center. "Everybody's paying the same amount, and so, if you're of modest means, you're going to be paying a lot more in taxes that way."

Republican lawmakers contend that those costs will be offset by lower income taxes. Rowe notes, however, that many low-income families don't owe any state income tax, so they won't benefit from a cut.

"It just really appears to be making up for cuts for folks at the higher end and corporations, which really does strike me as being a very unfair way to go," Rowe said.

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"Has anybody even stopped to think that this will wipe out the state tax deduction for federal taxes if you itemize? The estimated sales tax deduction you can take instead of the state tax deduction won't be indexed just for NC. Killing Time"

If you lower state taxes, it's a non-issue.

goncampn, Your screen name would be quite accurate if you had to pay a 29% tax on your house.

Never happen.

Has anybody even stopped to think that this will wipe out the state tax deduction for federal taxes if you itemize? The estimated sales tax deduction you can take instead of the state tax deduction won't be indexed just for NC.

Even better, many local governments have add-on sales taxes tacked onto the state rate. Do these add-ons go away, or do they get added to the new over 8% rate?

I did a little research and I found something amusing:

NC's income tax rates range from 6 to 7.75% of TAXABLE income (in other words, your net tax burden will always be less than 6%.

They are talking about raising the sales tax to over 8%, and grossly broadening the types of consumption that the tax applies to, so the net result is that most of you who live paycheck to paycheck will spend closer to 8% in taxes.

Remind me again why you support this?

"So it's unfair that some people make more money than others? Got it.

rocket"

No, it's the placing the highest tax(as a share of income) burden on those who can afford it least that is unfair. Nope January 18, 2013 3:08 p.m. Report abuse

All you two party sheep vote for tax increases yearly. You do know what an inflation tax is correct? You two party Federal Reserve loving minions vote for your own tax increases everytime you vote for anyone the support the Federal Reserve. Yes thats all the Obama/Romney voters. Thanks for the tax hike AGAIN!

ConservativeVoter - do you think that the $1,000 paid by the guy earning $10,000 represents the same degree of sacrifice, in terms of quality of life, that the $100,000 represents to the guy earning $1 million? You are demanding that some folks suffer more than others.

Just asking.

Note to ConservativeVoter:

Nissan moved to Tennessee because it got $197.6 million in special tax breaks and incentives from the state and local governments in exchange for making the move.

"I'm one of the well off - Grand Union"

And what does that have to do with anything?

"Under the FairTax, every person living in the United States pays a sales tax on purchases of new goods and services, excluding necessities due to the prebate." - goncampn2

Ah yes, the "prebate".

You do realize that the "prebate" turns the "fair tax" into just another progressive tax scheme, right? The only thing you are changing is the point of collection.

Oh, and the 23% figure is inaccurate. It's actually closer to 29%.

Oh, and people in the 15% tax bracket do not pay 15% of gross in taxes. They don't pay even close to 15%.

Interesting exercise for you: figure the net tax burden as a percentage of gross for a family of four, father is the sole earner and earns $60,000 per year, taking only standard deductions and credits (i.e. no mortgage deduction, etc.)

(Helpful hint: their net federal income tax burden is slightly over 2% of gross). Add in payroll taxes and he's at slightly below 10% of gross.

Still think 23% would be an improvement?

"whilst the well off like me won't even notice the change." Grand Union,

So you think $150K is well off?

"Because its a regressive tax."

No more regressive than Clothing Tax, Gasoline Tax, liquor tax, so its a mute point.

"The fair tax would ELIMINATE all tax's except consumption or tax on goods purchased." - goncampn2

And to be revenue neutral, it would have to be set at around 29%.

This is the fallacy that you guys buy into. You think that it will somehow magically reduce your taxes. It won't, not by a long shot.

It will reduce MY taxes, because I already pay (actually pay) more than 29% in federal income tax. If you pay less than 29% (and that is the vast majority of you), a "Fair" tax will INCREASE your tax burden.

abbreveil, maybe your friends who can't work a job into their schedules AND buy food should quit college. It sounds like they can't afford that luxury right now.

"Products are already priced such that the business makes a maximum profit. That is the whole idea of "Supply and demand". "

But taxes increase the cost to produce goods. Therefore the supply and demand curves shifts across the board. At least for American companies. End result, prices go up.

Do the wealthy consume more of the services provided by the state?- Rocket

yes, they generally do.

Business owners for example get massively more direct benefit from the public roads and infrastructure that allow their goods and customers to reach them.

Rich people in general get FAR more benefit from the legal system both in enforcing contracts and public safety since they have far more to lose

They benefit more from the education system since they have educated workers to be hired

They benefit more from military spending as, again, they have more to lose.

and on and on...

"A uniform tax would mean drug dealers, prostitutes and all the other people like them would have to pay taxes like the rest of us. If that happens they just might move to another state! Then what?" ray

Their customers would follow, which in turn would free up more money we won't be paying to support them. Remember the huge middle finger from the poor poor pitiful, hardworking, child-cherishing poor as they spent EBT funds at strip joints? Gone! Our taxes could be lowered as the free gimmes were not needed. Crime would drop. Our beautiful state would be repopulated with people who have self-respect, not the "self-esteem" their "community" told them they deserve.

"So it's unfair that some people make more money than others? Got it.

rocket"

No, it's the placing the highest tax(as a share of income) burden on those who can afford it least that is unfair.

"I love this idea? My grocery bill might go up but I will have more money in my check that I get to decide how to allocate."

See how much you love it when you realize you have a lot less no matter how you allocate.

Let's go to a flat tax with no income tax and sales tax.

Let's use a 10% tax rate for easy math.

If you make 10,000, you will pay 1,000 in taxes.

If you make 100,000, you will pay 10,000 in taxes.

If you make 1,000,000, you will pay 100,000 in taxes.

This way everybody has some skin in the game and the takers on welfare won't be demanding more entitlements if they know their taxes will go up to pay for the entitlements.

With the current system, the takers on welfare want more and more entitlements because they know it doesn't affect them because they don't pay taxes. It's easy to ask for things when you know somebody else will pay for it.

"Alaska is a unique case, as it collects truckloads of oil taxes and distributes them to the citizenry. It is currently facing a budget deficit, and is one of the largest net recipients of federal spending. "

Alaska also has a population less than that of the Triangle.....

"And, I can't begin to guess how many times I have been behind folks paying for groceries with food stamps that I help fund then turn right around and drop 40 or 50 dollars on lottery tickets. Enough to pay the 8% sales tax for over a month. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Go under "housing" on Craigslist and see how many people offer food stamps for a room to live in.

really? so babies should pay taxes, the elderly dying in hospital??? So no, everyone should not be paying taxes. Grand Union But everyone should pay their fair share right? You're all over the place today

"Yup, that's it in a nutshell, the redistribution mindset is so strong that anything that doesn't penalize the "rich" (successful, able to take care of their own needs without government) is just unfair (stamping feet and jutting out lower lip)!"

I'm one of the well off so clearly you are wrong (again). This change helps the rich and hurts almost everyone else and thats why its wrong. If being poor is so great why don't you give it a try? :)

The blue states like Michigan, New York, California, and Pennsylvania have the highest number of recipients of welfare. They also have the highest state income tax, highest property taxes, and multitude of other taxes. These states are also in the worst financial state of the other states in the country.

That's why there has been a wide scale migration from these high tax states to states with lower taxes.

The takers on welfare are destroying this country, one welfare check at a time.

It's interesting to hear Democrats complain about the Republicans gerrymandering the districts for their benefit yet these same Democrats didn't say a word when the Democrats did the same exact thing from before 1900 through 2010. ConservativeVoter

becuase its different when they do it, ya silly! Democrats are the party of txes, freebies, and double standards, they like double standards the best, right behind taxes

The FairTax is a national sales tax that treats every person equally and allows American businesses to thrive, while generating the same tax revenue as the current three-million-word-plus word tax code. Under the FairTax, every person living in the United States pays a sales tax on purchases of new goods and services, excluding necessities due to the prebate. The FairTax rate after necessities is 23% and equal to the lowest current income tax bracket (15%) combined with employee payroll taxes (7.65%), both of which will be eliminated. Fairtax.org... Read it be informed!!

Sorry, left out Florida. They have a nasty budget deficit as well, and fees, well, if you've ever lived in Florida, you know where they get their revenue from.

"I've seen (anecdotal) stories where they come right out and say they buy the toddler gold chains, that can be sold later for cash, as a way to hide cash from Social Services. Some of the greediest, most despicable, evil people in the world are "the disenfranchised."

so are they all despicable and evil? if not then what % is? And why would you punish those that are not because of the sins of others. I have no issues with clamping down on welfare fraud but see no reason to make the lives of the poor worse because a minority abuse it.

"yeah and I saw flying pigs last week so we need to have patriot missile batteries to stop that too..... Click to view my profile Grand Union"

Typical liberal response. If you can't debate or disprove the point you attack the poster who made the point that disproves your position.

"Consumers that have to hold fast to a budget will by cheaper foods that are not as healthy." goldenosprey

The poor are noted for choosing junk food. Put that at their door, not mine. How 'bout a hot, nutritious, pot roast? It calls for a very cheap cut of meat and some root vegetables. Almost no effort, unless it hurts the poor to brown the meat and cube the vegetables.

"really? so babies should pay taxes, the elderly dying in hospital??? So no, everyone should not be paying taxes. Click to view my profile Grand Union"

Typical taker attitude.

The posting was intending that the able bodied on welfare who choose not to work should be paying taxes.

You're typical liberal response was an extreme response to justify your opinion that takers shouldn't be paying taxes.

"Yup, that's it in a nutshell, the redistribution mindset is so strong that anything that doesn't penalize the "rich" (successful, able to take care of their own needs without government) is just unfair (stamping feet and jutting out lower lip)!" - Nancy

And what say you about the problem of stagnation of capital? Do these proposals increase or decrease that phenomenon?

@ nope... Like I said go to the website and see how the tax works. You are talking about their income. The fair tax would ELIMINATE all tax's except consumption or tax on goods purchased. Please!!! Research the topic before commenting on something you know nothing about. This method would create millions of jobs and provide additional money for investing or savings. I know that you want to help the poor correct? Wouldn't you agree that money saved could be used to their advantage or are you one of those who wants to keep poor people enslaved through welfare?

"LOL Alaska and Texas live on Oil revenues, Nevada on gambling so we are down to Tennessee. Now show that its lack of a State income tax that is responsible for any prosperity it has. Bet you can't. Click to view my profile Grand Union"

Nissan specifically said the lack of the state income tax was the a deciding factor they chose to relocate their corporate headquarters from California to Tennessee when they looked at several locations nationwide.

"A business has a profit threshold to meet to make the business viable. The taxes taken out of that profit are very much a part of what the final product price is to a customer. "

Good Lord. Not sure how many "conservatives" seem to have such a misunderstanding of how capitalism works.

Say you own a business. If you can increase your profit by raising your prices, what do you do? Simple - raise your prices. Every business leader already does this and does not wait for the government to make tax decisions. Products are already priced such that the business makes a maximum profit. That is the whole idea of "Supply and demand". If a business could just raise prices and "pass along" the costs to customers without hurting sales, they would have already raised their prices and just pocketed the extra profit.

Just a question for you proponents, as I haven't seen the numbers:

Are they proposing that this will be revenue neutral? If so, how? If not, what are they proposing to cut to make up the difference?

This is one of those emotional soundbite things that sounds good (like the "Fair" Tax) until you start digging into the details and find that it's smelly.

"Do the wealthy consume more of the services provided by the state? No, but they pay more in total taxes. Is that fair?"

yes. the well off still have a lower burden. I know, I'm one of them.

"Grand union, I'll let you look up state economic data for those who do not charge state income tax and have higher sales taxes instead - you DO know how to do your own research right?" - Nancy

I do. There are 7 states which have no income tax at all - Alaska, Texas, Nevada, South Dakota, Washington and Wyoming.

Alaska is a unique case, as it collects truckloads of oil taxes and distributes them to the citizenry. It is currently facing a budget deficit, and is one of the largest net recipients of federal spending.

Texas has a monster structural deficit, and has tried to address this by cutting services, chiefly education, to the bone.

Nevada?? Worst unemployment in the country. Enough said.

South Dakota also has a large budget deficit, and is a large net recipient of federal spending.

Investigate fees in Washington and Wyoming. It's not that they don't collect. It's just how they collect it and who they collect it from.

"And, I can't begin to guess how many times I have been behind folks paying for groceries with food stamps that I help fund then turn right around and drop 40 or 50 dollars on lottery tickets. Enough to pay the 8% sales tax for over a month. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

yeah and I saw flying pigs last week so we need to have patriot missile batteries to stop that too.....

"Grand union, I'll let you look up state economic data for those who do not charge state income tax and have higher sales taxes instead - you DO know how to do your own research right?"

I made no claims re that subject so why should I do your work to disprove your claims???? are the right always this lazy? Please show that this would in fact improve the economy or stop claiming that it will.

It's interesting to hear Democrats complain about the Republicans gerrymandering the districts for their benefit yet these same Democrats didn't say a word when the Democrats did the same exact thing from before 1900 through 2010.

"So it's unfair that some people make more money than others? Got it." - rocket

Yup, that's it in a nutshell, the redistribution mindset is so strong that anything that doesn't penalize the "rich" (successful, able to take care of their own needs without government) is just unfair (stamping feet and jutting out lower lip)!

"DUH, EVEYBODY should pay some taxes and this is the only way that can happen. Even though it will be a very tiny part of the taxes collected, at least they would be contributing SOMETHING. They surely take enough."

really? so babies should pay taxes, the elderly dying in hospital??? So no, everyone should not be paying taxes.

My most frustrating experience is to be in line behind someone paying for groceries with food stamps and then watching them buy several cartons of cigarettes and cases of beer with cash.

Then as you go outside, you see this individual putting the groceries, beer, and cigarettes in the trunk of a new or almost new car.

Seems if they have money for the beer, cigarettes, and car; they have the money to pay for their groceries without government assistance.

"Alaska, Nevada, Tennessee and Texas are excellent examples of a robust business economy in states that don't have state income taxes."

LOL Alaska and Texas live on Oil revenues, Nevada on gambling so we are down to Tennessee. Now show that its lack of a State income tax that is responsible for any prosperity it has. Bet you can't.

"Republican legislators never seem to shirk from rewarding the rich and hurting the middle class and the poor. Tax gold jewelry, large pleasure boats, gold watches, and expensive liquor and leave the middle class and poor alone." jacksun48

You may not be aware of this but in NC, the only assets counted when qualifying a person for Medicaid are: one house, one car, $2000 cash. You can have aaaallllllll the gold jewelry your toddler can wear, all the electronics, TVs, video games, Netflix memberships, etc., as you please. The takers teach each other these tricks to lie, cheat and steal. I've seen (anecdotal) stories where they come right out and say they buy the toddler gold chains, that can be sold later for cash, as a way to hide cash from Social Services. Some of the greediest, most despicable, evil people in the world are "the disenfranchised."

So it's unfair that some people make more money than others? Got it.

rocket

Thats the consensus, in addition it is also beleived that those who do make more money got that money by robbing and stealing or were lucky enough to be born into it, and thus dont deserve any of it.

I wish I could give a rip about what other people do with their own money. But it's their money and their business so I dont.

I love this idea? My grocery bill might go up but I will have more money in my check that I get to decide how to allocate.

"Except the wealthy spend a much larger percentage of their income on services and the poor spend a lot larger percentage of their income on basic goods that will get hit with a sales tax."

Do the wealthy consume more of the services provided by the state? No, but they pay more in total taxes. Is that fair?

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