tmedlin: blog 
tmedlin's blog
house hearing on "torture"
Published Jul 17, 2008Views: 139
I have been watching the House committee hearing on detainee treatment and it is absoutely infuriating!
Rep. Trent Franks noted that this congress's job is to protect Americans and in the 10 hearings that have taken place, not one of the meetings was held to protect Americans, but to only protect terrorists/detainees.
The members of congress and they way they are framing their questions will make you mad enough to scream. In their typical law school parlor game style, they ask questions, refuse to allow detailed answers, in order to get a "yes" or "no" to a question that they want on the record.
For example:
Qestion: Have detainees been tortured or murdered?
Answer: yes, but those who committed those acts have been tried and prosecuted and were not sanctioned by the Justice Dept. or President, or Secty of Defense.
Congressman (interrupting the witness): I didn't ask that, all I want is a "yes" or "no" answer...
An important comment made by a member of congess, was, that organizations like Human Rights (testifying in this hearing) will state "The United States tortures prisoners." A prisoner held in Maryland was recently killed. According to the way Human Rights reports events, they would report THAT event by stating "Maryland kills prisoners".
Now, that is what the main stream media picks up on, in order to slander and discredit not only the president, but Defense Dept., Justice Dept. and the military, in general.
There was an incedible amount of information contained in this hearing, including discussions about poking a finger in a detainee's chest, yelling at a detainee, playing "good cop/bad cop" as methods that "international organizations" would consider torture...
If you have time, go to the c-span website, and at the bottom of the page is a section of recent videos. Go to the detainee hearings and see it for yourself.
It will show you EXACTLY what the problem is with this congress. If you have ANY doubt as to why this country is having the problems it is, it will become crystal clear. The opening comments by the chairman and those testifying can be ignored...But go to the parts where they are actually questioning the panel. Believe me, even though it's long, let the video start running in the background...about 15 minutes in, you will be shocked at what you see. This whole country should see this 3 ring circus, where congress tries to play "gotcha", tries to distort what people in this country are doing to protect us.
Filed under: Government
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Because it does work. Ask John McCain if he told the truth to the NVA when he broke.
It works because a good interrogator asks questions he knows the answers to along with questions he doesn't know the answer to. It works because that intel is then coroborated through other sources.
Anyone who says torture is ineffective as an intelligence gathering technique is either lying or ignorant.
(FYI - Do not confuse my position as one in favor of actual torture. However, none the the techniques I have heard discussed constitute actual torture in my estimation. That nclude waterboarding.)
GOLO member since July 17, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:22 a.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:23 a.m.
That definition of torture includes waterboarding. If you don't think that waterboarding is torture or that torture doesn't generate false confessions, perhaps you should subject yourself to the treatment. I bet you would be ready to confess to murder just to make them stop. Then come back and tell us again that you don't think waterboarding generates false confessions.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:32 a.m.
You need to go back and read what I said.
GOLO member since July 17, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:34 a.m.
And THAT is the correct perspective on this whole issue. What we have is too many PC lawyers playing games.
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:35 a.m.
So you are saying that fifteen former interrogators and intelligence officials with more than 350 years collective field experience are either lying or ignorant?
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/etn/2008/alert/313/index.htm
"torture is an 'unlawful, ineffective and counterproductive' way to gather intelligence"
"Interrogation techniques that do not resort to torture yield more complete and accurate intelligence, they say."
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:36 a.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:39 a.m.
Interrogation experts agree with you. Are you an expert interrogator?
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:40 a.m.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:41 a.m.
Are our enemies abiding by the UN's neat and clean rules of engagement? NO
When we fought the British during the American Revolutionary war one af the major reasons we enjoyed the success we did was that we didn't always play by the same "gentlemanly rules" the Brits did. They thought we were barbaric. They played by their rules and we whooped their azzes while they did.
I grew up hearing the maxim that "all's fair in love and war".
When it comes to a fight you either fight by the rules or you fight to win. If you're not fighting to win, you're going to lose. Right now Congress is forcing our military to fight by the UN's rules while our enemies are fighting to win. THAT is why they are giving us such a hard time. You wanna see us win? Turn our military loose under the command of a warfighter and let them do what they've been trained and equipped to do and we'll kick some serious azz!
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:47 a.m.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:49 a.m.
Yes.
GOLO member since July 17, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:49 a.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:50 a.m.
Yes."
And your expertise in the field of effective interrogation techniques consists of how many years of service in that field?
Civilian and military interrogation experts agree that torture is not an effective interrogation method, but you disregard their opinions because you know better, or?
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:51 a.m.
That is from a report created by Human Rights First, a political machine with an agenda that does not include the security of this nation. Their repots will ALL be skewed. Would I disagree with 15 former interrogators who have 350 years collective experience? ABSOLUTELY!
How many ACTIVE interrogators with how much collective experience believe that certain techniques considered to be torture by the UN agree that these techniques DO WORK? Until you answer THAT question then 15 people with 350 years experience is IRRELEVANT.
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:53 a.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:54 a.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 11:57 a.m.
You tell me. How many ACTIVE interrogators with how much collective experience believe that certain techniques considered to be torture by the UN agree that these techniques DO WORK?
Answer that question.
Unless you can show proof that there is a large group of experienced interrogators who believe that torture DOES work, your opinions are irrelevant compared to the fifteen experienced interrogators.
The ball is in your court. In order to support your opinion, show us reports from expert interrogators stating that torture works. If you can't, your opinions are irrelevant.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 11:59 a.m.
The report doesn't distinguish between physical and mental torture, but you already knew that by reading the article, right?
Lets turn it around. Show me reports that mental torture, excluding the use of drugs since drugs are clearly a PHYSICAL substance, works.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 12:02 p.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 12:09 p.m.
GOLO member since July 18, 2008
July 17, 2008 12:10 p.m.
Funny, others, including the NGO Monitor, consider Human Rights First to be a fair and balanced organization. "In contrast to politicized groups such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, HRF presents a measured appraisal of human rights without erasing the context and while preserving the core principles of universality and single standards. "
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=1456
Nice work trying to discredit the organization (you failed), but you have yet to discredit the fifteen interrogation experts. Do you have ANY kind of verifiable proof to discredit them? Fairytale stories like "my buddies met a CIA 'doctor' who played mindgames" don't count since it's not verifiable.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 12:11 p.m.
Interrogation works. Torture to extract unrealiable confessions doesn't work, at least according to the experts. It's too bad you can't see the difference.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 12:14 p.m.
Further proof that interrogations work. I was asking for proof that torture works. Interrogation experts don't think torture works, and I was just wondering why you would think it works.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 12:17 p.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 12:18 p.m.
WHY are you so bent on protecting them?
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 12:21 p.m.
Why are you so bent on using torture?
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 12:41 p.m.
Because you wrote:
"I'm going on the experience I have in Iraq of actually doing raids and catching "bad guys" from intel gained from *interogations* "
You wrote "gained from interogations [sic]", not "gained from torture", so that's why I assumed the captured were interrogated but not tortured. If they were tortured, why didn't you write that? How about reading what you write before accusing me of making unsupported assumptions?
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 12:46 p.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 12:59 p.m.
GOLO member since August 22, 2007
July 17, 2008 12:59 p.m.
GOLO member since August 22, 2007
July 17, 2008 1:03 p.m.
Waterboarding, on the other hand... If someone who doesn't think waterboarding is torture is waterboarded and confesses to murder just to make them stop, can that confession be used in a court of law? If waterboarding isn't torture, the person should have no problems accepting his prison term or death penalty, right? If you don't think waterboarding is torture, try it and be willing to accept punishment for everything you confess to.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 1:06 p.m.
e94de - I'm not "slamming" you. You are obviously a very intelligent individual. You just seem to buy into the "left" view of the world and I do not. I don't believe that the "right" is always right but I do believe their basic worldview is more solidly grounded on reality. If we could just get the 2 side working together, stop thinking and acting like "we're all right and you're all wrong" like a healthy marriage, then we could get something of substance accomplished. As it is now we have an "us and them" approach. We are divided too much and "any kingdom divided against itself cannot stand".
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 1:16 p.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 1:21 p.m.
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 1:21 p.m.
GOLO member since August 22, 2007
July 17, 2008 1:25 p.m.
GOLO member since July 18, 2008
July 17, 2008 1:36 p.m.
The problem is that intelligence gained under torture may lead troops in the wrong direction, lead troops away from missions where there is a true need, or in worst case into further danger. People will say just about anything to get torture to stop, so I don't see how torture-acquired intelligence would be any better than intelligence acquired through traditional interrogation methods like sleep deprivation and good cop - bad cop. There seemss to be a belief that torturing a person will make him tell all the truths he know, but as the fifteen interrogation experts referenced above attests to, that is not the case.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 1:57 p.m.
I've just about given up on the politicians in D.C., both Dems and Reps. The current C-SPAN circus is just a call for attention, but that doesn't mean the question of torture or no torture is not important.
I believe that torture doesn't give reliable intelligence, and I'm not the only one to believe so. Wouldn't it be great if you could strap a terrorist suspect to a chair and zap his genitals with electricity a few times and he would only tell you the truth afterward? Unfortunately that's not the way it works, at least according to interrogation experts.
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 2:04 p.m.
GOLO member since July 18, 2008
July 17, 2008 2:07 p.m.
Who's to say that your "opinion" or "judgment" that you KNOW which is reality and which is politics? How come you know and others don't? That's like saying, "let's compromise. do it MY way."
It amazes me sometimes just how simplistically interchangeable these arguements become---you could substitute "left-wing, Commie, ACLU-perverted tree-hugging Liberal" with "right-wing, Facist neo-con Conservative" in most of these posts, and the rest could be the same, and everyone would be satisfied, because things are so polarized and reactionary.
Ladies and gentelmen, that is not the "common ground" we seek. Until we find a way to embrace common ideals and goals, nothing will be accomplished. Washington is the worst example. We must make it work for us again--not just the "leaders."
GOLO member since July 10, 2007
July 17, 2008 3:00 p.m.
Interrogators mission is to obtain information. I dare say there are precious few interrogators out there whose primary mission is to inflict suffering on the enemy.
The bottom line is: We are at war and there IS an enemy who wants to destroy us. We had BETTER fight to win, whatever form that takes because there is NOTHING civilized about war.
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 3:11 p.m.
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 17, 2008 3:15 p.m.
GOLO member since July 4, 2008
July 17, 2008 3:22 p.m.
Would that include torture? Just like getting information from people captured on the battlefield is important, it can be equally important to get information out of people involved in domestic crime cases. Should U.S. police also be allowed to "get the information ANY way they can without fear of reprisal"?
GOLO member since October 12, 2007
July 17, 2008 10:15 p.m.
GOLO member since February 28, 2008
July 18, 2008 12:01 a.m.
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